Juvenal- The Satires

[Messalina Mommsen]

I'm just reading the Book I of Juvenal's Satire's and was interested to hear what everyone thinks of Juvenal? In particular, I was wondering what kind of historical use these satires could be for historians of today? What do they tell us of the world that Juvenal lived in? Also, does Juvenal deserve the common reputation he has gained as a politically incorrect, caustic and bitter man? As a historical source, what are the strengths and weaknesses of his satires? Just a few questions that may generate a little discussion if I'm lucky...

[Primus Pilus]

I readily admit that I'm not nearly as familiar with the poets and satirists as I should be, but as I recall, Juvenal's works largely corroborate the histories of Tacitus and to a lesser extent Suetonius.

 

He was one of the few 'non-historians' that I enjoyed reading as he left virtually no target left untouched. Was he a jaded, miserable man? Perhaps, and I suppose that can taint his satires for historical value, but we openly recognize the biases of the 'historians' and still accept basic truths within their works.

[Messalina Mommsen]

I'm not as familiar with the poets or satirists either (hence the eager desire for discussion)! Although Juvenal is considered a 'non-historian', his words certainly provide an interesting insight into the world of Rome- it's social life, everyday sights and sounds and physical features. Indeed, Juvenal was probably a jaded man, but perhaps this bias reflects some kind of truth in that many people of that time were probably feeling similar jaded sentiments. Apparently Juvenal was incredibly poor for a lot of his life and experienced the patron-client relationship he vehemently abhors in his writings.

 

As a student of history, this is one thing I grapple with- the idea of 'non-history' and 'history.' A lot of sources offer a lot of historical value- even if they were never intended to do so. I guess that's why we must be careful to include sources such as Juvenal and Martial in our historical endeavours- they provide a unique voice that is often much needed. For example, Juvenal's well known phrase 'breads and circuses' is well worth noting when discussing the pomp and propaganda that emperors such as the Flavians used in their public festivities.

 

Well, it's 2.15am for me here in Australia and I'm rambling in a very bad way. Off to bed. Cheerio.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Well this is a topic I'm not too good at. I don't think I know what satirists are. Is it the same as rhetoric?

[Viggen]

Well this is a topic I'm not too good at. I don't think I know what satirists are. Is it the same as rhetoric?

 

The Satire is a literary technique, which exposes the follies of its subject, like individuals, organizations or even goverments (empire) to ridicule, often as an intended means of provoking.

 

A classic example of a satire d`extreme is Jonathan Swifts "Modest Proposal"

it is a classic example of the technique most widely used today: the reductio ad absurdum, disproving the validity of a notion by pursuing it to absurdly logical extremes. Swift was reacting to the subtly pervasive dehumanization of poor Irish by showing the potentially horrific consequences of overt and complete dehumanization.

more on it at Checkplease

 

cheers

viggen

[Hamilcar Barca]

I did enjoy reading Juvenal. With regards to their accuracy of the times, it is fair to say that this is so although they are of course exagerated, just like any satire. Juvenal's bitterness and fierce dislike of Domitian "the bald Nero", stem from the fact that he was exiled to Egypt in his younger years following a blistering oration against a poet whom Domitian had a liking for. Up until then, Juvenal had lived a reasonably comfortable life, but with all his possessions confiscated, he was forced to squalor in Egypt where he not suprisingly developed an impassioned hatred for the locals, something to whom he would later dedicate an entire book. This hatred was compounded by the fact that among Domitian's top advisors, was an Egyptian called Crispus, of whom he hated in paticular. Another statire was later written about foreigners taking all the good jobs which belonged to Romans. (sounds familiar)

 

After the death of Domitian he was recalled from his exile by Nerva, but found himself just as impoversished. Owing to this he to seeked help from the Patrician classes with the client tributary system. Essentially this was where a wealthy Patrician, in order to show his good faith towards humaity, took a number of Plebians under his wing as clients by giving them financial advice, a daily ration of bread or coins or occassionally inviting them over for a lavish dinner. Juvenal evidently found corruption within this system first hand, writing about how Patricians did such deeds just to win the esteem of their colleagues, but rarely did little to help. As years went on, Juvenal asummingly built up some sort of wealth and in his later years lived a reasonably comfortable life, at which point his satires become less aggressive and more philosphoical. e.g. The Satire detailing what a man should and should not strive for in life.

 

The satires are great insights into contemporary Roman life in the 1st and 2nd Century AD but of course Juvenal is keen to only focus on everything which is wrong with the times and clearly has a republican bias. In any case, the books are an insightful and humerous read, his book condemning Egyptians and homosexuals is a must read.

[Messalina Mommsen]

I did enjoy reading Juvenal. With regards to their accuracy of the times, it is fair to say that this is so although they are of course exagerated, just like any satire. Juvenal's bitterness and fierce dislike of Domitian "the bald Nero", stem from the fact that he was exiled to Egypt in his younger years following a blistering oration against a poet whom Domitian had a liking for.

 

I concur- Juvenal's satires certainly provide for enjoyable reading. However, I am not sure as to where you acquired your references for the information on Juvenal's exile in Egypt? From what I have read, it is not entirely certain whether or not Juvenal was actually exiled. Of the life of Juvenal, little is known. He was most likely the addressee of three epigrams by Martial (7.24, 7.91, 12.98) where he is depicted as both living a hectic life in Rome (12.18.1-6) and having oratorical skill (7.91.1). However, no other ancient source provides further information (except for what is contained in Juvenal's satire). I'm well aware the Egypt is referenced and detailed by Juvenal in his satire, but considering the purpose of satire as a genre, it's hard to trust its validity as a historical source. Combining humour with criticism, the satirists of the early Principate- such as Lucilius, Horace and Persius- used satire as a means of criticising the world around them for the purposes of entertainment. Braund suggests that distortion or exaggeration of events was not only commonly accepted in this genre, but often necessary. Therefore, the haphazard and kaleidoscopic style of the satire leaves much to the imagination. Unlike historical accounts of Rome produced in this time period, such as Tacitus

[Hamilcar Barca]

Unfortunately there isn't any direct evidence that points to Juvenal been exiled to Egypt. Like you said, of his personal life we have but a paucity of information. The theory that he was exiled is pieced together from certain references and attitudes that he conveys throughout his satires. We do know for example that he blasted a poet that Domitian was fond of, and that prior to this time, his satires had a more fun and far less angry feel to them. Thereafter (assuming his return) an impassioned hatred of Domtian, Egyptians, foreigners and patricians emerges. No contemporary source actually states that he was exiled to Egypt but a number of historians today have suggested it. This is of course no more than an educated speculation, designed to explain Juvenals flamming rants.

[Messalina Mommsen]

Thanks Hamilcar- that's as a thought. Have you read other satirists and if so, who is the most entertaining?

[Hamilcar Barca]

Unfortunately Juvenal is the only one i've seriously studied to date. Right now I'm reading Jornandes.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Today, I found out that my school library has the book of Juvenal. Well I should expect, we have somewhat a lot of books from Greek philosopers. Still not gonna read Juvenal, not really the type to understand philosohpical writings, just messes up my head.

[Messalina Mommsen]

Still not gonna read Juvenal, not really the type to understand philosohpical writings, just messes up my head.

 

I'm not necessarily sure if Juvenal could be classed as a 'philosophical' text. It's more a political form of poetry, with the earlier satirists using rhetoric (as you suggested earlier). What makes it difficult to understand is perhaps the language it uses.

 

Yet, as a Radiohead song says: 'I might be wrong.'