Rome & Usa

[HISTORICUS]

Hello. I would like to start a debate about the similarities and differences between the Roman and the American republics. When I write "Roman Republic" I include the period of the empire, seeing that officially Rome was always a republic. I think there could be more to it than the pure intellectual stimulation of the debate. I read somewhere in the forum a question as to why are people so fascinated with the Romans. One of the answers I could give that person is that by learning how the Roman republic evolved, we can avoid making the same mistakes. For example, I personally believe that by understanding the under-handed evolution from republic to empire (or dictatorship) we can learn how to avoid the same situation in our own republic. Another idea I would like to propose is that today's post cold war world is more similar to the days of Rome than to the 19th century struggles between nations, contrary to many pundits' opinions. In this world, America plays the role Rome played, and it doesn't mean that Rome never lost a battle or a war, just that it was the overwhelming power that everybody had to take into account. More to come.

[Ursus]

Maybe America is closer to Carthage. Both were colonies of older powers that grew into major powers in their own right. Both were great commercial and naval powers which channeled that economic power into a considerable military.

[HISTORICUS]

Sorry to disagree, but there's a multitude of things common to the US and Rome, which simply don't exist with Carthage. From the political system to world dominance to the very motto and ensigna of the republic.

[Sextus Roscius]

I agree in part with both of you.

 

While america's plitical system clearly is based off the Roman Republic, the actually history of America is more representative of that of Carthage. But if we truely follow the same path as the carthaginians then when will the moderen "Rome" so to speak destroy us.

 

However our complexity of life is completely different to any of these powers and so I think it is impossible for The U.S. to really be completely related to them in terms of culture, though Rome's culture resembles ours very well in the sense of how people go about the daily lives and the government input, we follow a different moral code which has major impact.

 

Though we may yet, as Rome did, see a dictator rise rather than be defeated by Rome's might. Which will happen? We may, just like the licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, never know...

[Northern Neil]

I believe the similarity was, and continues, to be very close. Until recent years, the US picked wars with other, weaker powers and on victory annexed territory in a very Roman way: for example, the Spanish American war and the annexation of Puerto Rico. More recently, pressuring rival powers such as Britain, France and Belgium to give up their colonies in the name of freedom, yet steadfastly keeping their own colonial acquisitions ( the American midwest from the native Americans, for instance ) also has its ancient parallels.

 

To me, George W. has much in common with some of the mid - third century Emperors such as Decius, assuming power by less than democratic means and keeping his citizens focused on 'The War Against...' whoever the present focus of exteral danger is at that moment, whilst at home there are internal crises which dont make the news. (to be fair to Decius, though, this process had been the norm since the accession of Augustus) Clinton, on the other hand, was more of a Hadrian, or even a Marcus Aurelius... in my humble opinion!

 

On the positive side, there are the many things about America which make it and its culture very admirable, and something that people from all over the world aspire towards becoming part of. They are just too numerous to mention here.

 

I think America has already learnt a lot from Rome; by my estimate, I believe - or rather hope - it has now reached its 'Augustan maximum' in terms of territory, and is now merely exercising influence to prevent other powers overtaking it, much as Rome did with Parthia. The US must, however, beware of an modern equivalent to the rise of Persia in the 3rd century...

[Viggen]

The USA has to accept its imperial status and the responsibilities which come with it. With its global dominions, militarist culture, and geo-political ambitions, the USA is an empire and should display some modest intelligence in looking to the past for answers to this complex role.

 

btw. i edited the Title from America to USA,

...because the USA is not America but part of it...

 

cheers

viggen

[Primus Pilus]

The USA has to accept its imperial status and the responsibilities which come with it.

 

By whose authority and what does this have to do with a comparison to Rome?

[Viggen]

By whose authority and what does this have to do with a comparison to Rome?

 

Hehe I believe the Authority called Reality, and i do think that in the 21st century the closest thing that resembled Rome at its peak is the USA of today...

 

cheers

viggen

[Plautus]

I think the beauty of the comparison is that Rome was a Republic for 450 years and the US for 229. Rome used slaves and the US uses immigrant labor and outsourcing. We have our modern Catos railing about a return to purer form of citizenship, although I doubt the Founding Fathers would recognize what they were talking about. Roman democracy slipped away so gradually that it wasn't until Caligula's horse in the Senate that anybody noticed that something had gone wrong. It is a abject lesson to us all while we are distracted by ever glitzier Panem et Circenses on FOX TV.

[Pertinax]

The Roman concept of "becoming effeminate" seems to be overtaking the behaviour of some Americans.This phrase does not have the modern meaning of any type of sexual orientation or sexual politics rather meaning "persons given over to sensual enjoyment", (oral pleasures)so that they are no longer morally true. I would further suggest that this might in contemperary terms be most obvious to our ancestors in overconsumption of food, rather than any sexual behaviour.In Briatain I would cite binge drinking as a similar behaviour.

The Roman orators spoke out against "effeminacy" and the degeneracy of the Imperium as being manifest in the behaviour and charachter of particular Emperors and certain priveliged sections of society.

So if we are Stoic in our outlook perhaps the parallels are visible?

A further question arises -if you have a significant number of your population living in peace and prosperity do you have any obligation to stop them eating themselves to death ? If you look at "Arab" websites and blogs the interesting comment which always seems jarring to Westerners is how roundly the idea of democratic "equality" is laughed at on the not insignificant basis that although its nice to think everyone is equal a quick look round a shopping mall or train tells you the contrary. Which Emperor was it that despaired of the Senate actually working as a decent "republican " body?

Ive wandered off a bit again there : I say a Stoic Emperor for me and thinner citizens.

[Pertinax]

I answer my own question-Octavian was in favour of a functioning senate!

[Pertinax]

I cant stop now ive started! I was struck by Julius Ceasers disdainful description of the the native Britons as basically a bunch of wild ,drunken ,smelly, fornicating oiks bearing children promiscuosly with any woman available. So perhaps we are quite like our ancestors in Brittania? So if the USA is the Imperium perhaps we are unchanged by the passage of histor.

note: if you are non-British the word "oik" may be problematic,I suggest the Roman word "prole" as a possible substitute thogh it has a more urban flavour, oik could be any town or country dweller of rough , coarse or vulgar nature.

[Favonius Cornelius]

I cant stop now ive started! I was struck by Julius Ceasers disdainful description of the the native Britons as basically a bunch of wild ,drunken ,smelly, fornicating oiks bearing children promiscuosly with any woman available. So perhaps we are quite like our ancestors in Brittania? So if the USA is the Imperium perhaps we are unchanged by the passage of histor.

note: if you are non-British the word "oik" may be problematic,I suggest the Roman word "prole" as a possible substitute thogh it has a more urban flavour, oik could be any town or country dweller of rough , coarse or vulgar nature.

 

 

While I agree with the idea that Rome and America are frighteningly similar in historical evolution, I do not agree with the supposed sociological trends as indicative of a nation's abilities. While Muslim states may point to the obese as a sign of our own corruption, I would point at their blatant sexism and archaic justice systems, or the ample populations in ALL these nations that live in poverty. Bravery and strength can come from the ugliest hole. Woe be the day that America is really in trouble, then I am sure one would find quite a population of people ready to use a gun. Using Caesar's definition of the Britons, one can also say that it was these same people who kept Caesar largely out of Briton and later brought the vengeance of Budica.

 

Pertinax, by the way did you ever play Imperium before?

[Pertinax]

My words were not to damm America or my own Country and certainly not to ignore the barbarism of other hectoring cultures whose behaviour is reminiscent of the Dark Ages,rather as a commentary on cycles of decadence and reinvigoration of nations.No offence taken by the way , my style of writing has always been a bit cryptic. Speaking "from among the Brigantes" I am amused and bemused that my Countrymen and Women seem to be of such a ferociously hard partying bunch of loons after 2000 years.

Brittania as a province was abandoned hastily to allow the defence of other parts of the Imperium, it had the unfortunate charachteristic of being useful for metal extraction and some grains but in its remoter corners a sufeit of tribal warriors but no real exploitable resources. Perhaps a longer Imperial interlude would have changed the nature of the land.

 

I forgot to answer Favonius -no I did not play Imperium previously.

[Plautus]

As for the idea that America may fall due to social and sexual permissiveness, I'm more worried about going the other way. That too many Censors want to turn us into somethg more like Oliver Cromwell's Puritan Theocracy. That is a greater danger than what people do behind closed doors. ANd as for Englishmen liking to party...did you ever try and get home on the London Tube late on Guy Fawkes Day? Oy!All thats missing is the wolf teeth and woad!