Iberians, Celts, And Visigoths

[Favonius Cornelius]

Ibernia (spain and portugal) were ruled by africans(phynicians).

 

Huh? I don't remember Africans in Iberia until the Muslim invasions...

[LEG X EQ]

yes, the Moores invaded iberia aswell, and ended VisiGoth (west Goths) rule. And stayed for about 800 years till iberia was completely liberated.

 

But your question , suprises me. Yes, the Carthagians(phynicias) were africans. CARTHAGE the city, was build about 50 km north of todays Tunis(capital of tunisia north africa)the carthage terretory was whats today Algeria Morocco tunisia and a bit of western Lybia.

And the cathage people had good relationship with black africans. The Carthage established 2000 Ethiopian archers in iberia, to further secure it, from the Roman army.

 

here is a map.of Cathage before wars against rome.

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Graphics/carthage-rome-218.gif

[Primus Pilus]

Yes, we all know where Carthage was... I believe Favonius was referring more to an ethnic or cultural identification than he was to a geographic one.

[Pantagathus]

Ibernia (spain and portugal) were ruled by africans(phynicians). than the romans invaded iberia in the first of the punic wars, than hannibal conquered it back, and than the Imperial Romans invaded it again in the second Punic war.

 

Not quite.

 

The Romans never set foot in Spain militarily until the outset of the 2nd Punic War. The 1st was fought for control of Sicily, Sardinia, etc...

 

Hamilcar Barca, Hannibals father began empire buliding in Spain after the end of the 1st Punic War in 237 BC (to prepare for renewed conflict with Rome per se)

 

Furthermore, the Carthaginians were not 'Africans' in the racial sense. They were Phoenician (semitic) colonists from Tyre which is in modern day Lebanon.

[Pertinax]

You beat me to the draw Pantagathus, and the Phonecians are quite mysterious in their own way being considered by some to be a "trading clan" rather than of a definitive ethnicity ( the Jomsvikings might be perhaps be considerd a similar if rather more "hands on" non-blood related "pragmmatic " group of persons, though etnically much less diverse).

[Pantagathus]

Yeah you're talking about the Tartessians...

 

Ah yes that is it! Can you profess to us about the Tartessians? I'd like to learn more.

 

Favonius,

 

I started a thread a while ago on the subject of Tartessus found here: The Tartessus Puzzle

 

Didn't get too many takers...

 

I've done some extensive research on the subject and have come to some interesting conclusions, namely that Tartessus didn't just sprout up ~ 1000 BC when the Phoenicians came calling.

 

What is still elusive and can only be guessed at is whether there was interaction between Tartessian/Iberians and the Eastern Mediterranean before the collapse of the Bronze age. I tend to think that the Phoenicians knew what they were going out there for; that they were in a sense re-establishing ties and not developing new ones per se.

 

Many scholars claim that it was the Phoenicians who taught the Tartessians how to mine the metals they sat on. That does not make sense at all. Why would the Phoenicians need them as a trade partner if they weren't already exploiting their own resources? Furthermore there appears to be both textual & archaeological evidence that the Tartessians were in fact mining innovators...

 

One of the best, and most overlooked clues regarding Tartessus can be found in Strabo's Chapter on Turditania. The Turditani as known to the Romano-Punic world are geographically the same people as the Tartessians we know from Greek classical literature.

 

Strabo's account which was most likely based on Polybius' from ~ 200 years earlier shows an absolute fascination with the cultural, economic & technological accomplishments of these people. One thing that has stood out to me in particular is the mention of how the Turditani men utilized "Egyptian Screws" (i.e. Archimedes Screws) to remove water out of their mines, something that quite evidently surprises Strabo.

 

Considering once again that this account is probably a reference to what Polybius witnessed in the 2nd Century BC (not long after Archimedes 'invented it'), I find it surprising and quite telling as well. Makes you wonder if this technology was actually brokered out of Iberia and was put to use in Egypt for irrigation purposes then Archimedes brought the idea back from there where he was given credit for it in Greek classical literature. (i.e. Diodorus, through Sicilian pride gave Archimedes the credit for it...).

 

Anyway, what seems to have happened to Tartessus proper (the actual city) is also conjecture but it seems likely that it's demise was due to both environmental (flooding of the Guadalquivir) and political forces.

 

It's my stance that in the 6th Century after Tyre finally fell to Nebuchadnezzar; Carthage wasn't obliged anymore to play nice with Tartessus as their Phoenician forefathers had. I think that Carthage made an aggressive move on the Tartessian power center ~ 535 BC to finally monopolize their control over the Western Med. I think that is why all of a sudden Carthage sent Himlico & Hanno out on their explorations of the Atlantic shortly thereafter in the 5th Century... Before that, Tartessus controlled those routes (to the 'Tin Islands') and after, Carthage had to figure them out for themselves...

 

Ultimately, we don't know anything for certain because what ever was known was most likely found in Carthage's libraries. Though the Romans took care to copy much of those works before they torched the place, information on Tartessus would have been a serious hot potato seen as how the Turditani had already revolted (197 BC) and the Romans were dealing with on going insurrection in Celtiberia. Anything that would have further empowered the Iberians in feeling that they deserved independence from Rome would have no doubt been suppressed.

 

Strabo said "These are the wisest amongst the Iberians. They have letters, and written histories of ancient transactions, and poems, and laws in verse, as they assert, six thousand years old"... wouldn't it be a windfall if some of those were finally found under the alluvial plain of the Guadalquivir...

[Pertinax]

this is excellent stuff- thank you

[LEG X EQ]

@pantagathus

 

first of all, sorry for my bad english, i am german and in german we use different terms for the ancient world, thats why i spelled Phoenician with a Y.

 

at the topic africans: well, i guess thats the debate, i know that carthage was a phoenician settlement. But like egypt, carthage had a massive black community, who were the common people and mostly the military.

If you look at a bust of hannibal, you can asume that he is white, but that was just the "royalty".

 

their culture was deffinetly mediteranean, mostly greek style.

 

heres a bust of hannibal

http://www.bartleby.com/86/3201.gif

 

but if you look here, you get doubts o fhow hannibal realy looked like

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/aafri/king.html

[LEG X EQ]

personally ithink that KINGS of AFRICA is total [obscenity deleted by mod], in terms of hannibal. Hannibal was by no means black, and the iformation, is also false, in terms of italy. Italy didnt exist back than, it was Italica. And Hannibal never took hold of any italic roman city. He destroyed a couple of villages and won a few battles, but never really invaded anything. he just strolled around for 14 years (with celtic gaul mercanaries) and than got called back to carthage because th romans were attacking them.

[Primus Pilus]

He destroyed a couple of villages and won a few battles, but never really invaded anything. he just strolled around for 14 years (with celtic gaul mercanaries) and than got called back to carthage because th romans were attacking them.

 

I'd argue that his achievements, while ultimately ending in failure, deserve a bit more respect than that.

[LEG X EQ]

well, he never took hold of any city or terretory, i will give credit for managing to bring elephants across the alps, and for winning the battle of cannae. But he never realy troubled rome, the romans constanly attacked him and his troops, weakening him everytime. But as you said, in the end he failed and wasnt the least bit effective. The romans were effective, cause we all know what happend once the Romans entered Carthage and north africa.

 

Hanibal crossing the alps with elephants

http://217.160.164.65/teampointcom/roemisc...om/hannelef.jpg

[Pantagathus]

LEG X,

 

I wasn't chastizing you when you posted about Carthage, just trying to get the facts (as presented) straight. Folks come here to find quick access to info (often for school) and it's only right to point them in the right direction.

 

So no worries...

 

As for that Kings of Africa stuff.................................... I better not say much beyond: "don't use it as reference material unless you are writing an article for the Black Panther Party"

 

Furthermore, it is correct that Carthage had different 'castes' determined by race per se but it can be well argued that Sub-Saharan "black" Africans were a very small minority. We must remember that (for the most part) to folks of the 1st Millennia BC, all Sub-Saharan Africans were considered Ethiopians; which meant "people with burnt faces."

 

In Carthage, you would have had:

1. Carthaginians (Phoenicians)

2. Libyo-Phoenician (Mixed as name implies. Semitic + Berber)

3. Numidians & Mauritanians (Berbers)

4. Traders (from anywhere & everywhere)

5. Slaves (from anywhere & everywhere)

[Eunapius Titus]

Here's a few more things about Iberia I've learned throughout the years.

 

Despite Celtic influence in the northern and eastern area of Iberia, most of the peninsula remained with the strong native culture for many years. The Iberians were cattle-herders, rarely planting and tending to be more of a wandering sort of people. This is due to the weather in Iberia (the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain), which gave relatively few sunny days per year, compared to the Mediterranean climates of Carthage, Rome, Greece, Egypt, and the like. There was a narrow band around the Southern and Eastern coasts that was very fertile, but major powers tended to control these areas, including the Greeks, Carthaginians, Celts (I realize that they're not actually a unified nation) and the Romans.

 

The Iberians were fierce fighters and defenders, master of guerilla warfare long before anyone had really conceived of such a strategy as a manner of managing an entire war. Storehouses containing tens of thousands of sling-bulletes have been found throughout the area. Heroes such as Viriato used ambushes and raids to completely stave off the advange of Roman hegemony. In fact, most of the success of Romans in this area lies in political tricks than military strength.

 

Their equipment in battle became a Roman standard. They are credited with engineering the javelin as a weapon to be carried by dedicated infantry who would also weild a sword. More importantly, the sword they used most commonly, the espasa, was renamed the "gladius" by the Romans. Perhaps you've heard of it.

[julieboy]

Have vread that Iberians migrated to Corsica,Sardinia,and Sicily. Did they at all migrate into the Italian peninsula?

[Northern Neil]

I have come accross several websites claiming that North West Spain and bits of Northern Portugal (Galicia) have a celtic speaking population, or at least there are people there claiming celtic descent. Is this true?