Iberians, Celts, And Visigoths

[docoflove1974]

I have come accross several websites claiming that North West Spain and bits of Northern Portugal (Galicia) have a celtic speaking population, or at least there are people there claiming celtic descent. Is this true?

 

The first part of your question--the existence of Celts in Iberia--is pretty straightforwardly "yes":

 

According to Elcock (1960: 173-6) Celts went into Spain ~7th c. BCE, and extended into western Iberia, and seemed to be "closely associated" in later years with Romanized Gauls. Elcock suggests that the Celtic ways and language were absorbed by the Iberian people who they conquered. Romans went into Lusitania ~148BCE (major loss to Viriathus). "In the course of the campaign which followed [the loss], the armies from Baetica [what is now Andalucia] became the first Romans to set foot in north-west Spain, the later Gallaecia." The Celts were in the western part of Iberia, the Iberians in the East, and in the middle the 'Celt-Iberians'...basically a mix of the two cultures.

 

So the foundation is there...topographic data suggests heavy Celtic influence. It doesn't seem that--outside of lexical items which were incorporated into Latin--Celtic had any influence on the Latin/Romance speakers; there is discussion about it possibly being a strong substratum influence in Gallo-Romance, but it's unclear if Celtic, Germanic, or what played a stronger role.

 

As far as having any current Celtic-speaking populations, I doubt it, but it could be.

[Andrew Dalby]

As far as having any current Celtic-speaking populations, I doubt it ...

 

That's right, I think. There are none. But, oddly enough, the Galicians (speaking the Portuguese-like language of the far northwest) get included as honorary Celts in some of the international Eisteddfods etc. I don't really know why.

[docoflove1974]

But, oddly enough, the Galicians (speaking the Portuguese-like language of the far northwest) get included as honorary Celts in some of the international Eisteddfods etc. I don't really know why.

 

No kidding...huh. I guess if you're Celtic at heart, then you're admitted?

[Pantagathus]

According to Elcock (1960: 173-6) Celts went into Spain ~7th c. BCE, and extended into western Iberia, and seemed to be "closely associated" in later years with Romanized Gauls. Elcock suggests that the Celtic ways and language were absorbed by the Iberian people who they conquered.

 

Current research & understanding seems to be more inline with a 'proto-Celtic' incursion during the Atlantic Bronze Age (~Final).

 

Furthermore, it seems that the 'Celtic' elements known in the Cuneus (Southwest corner) during the last couple of centuries BC, had already moved into that area by about the 8th c. BC. Drawn to the developing wealth of the Tartessian culture, they moved to occupy un/under utilized pastureland and get closer to the salt resources of the region for their cattle.

Edited June 23, 2006 by Pantagathus

[Kosmo]

In the peninsula came the celtiberians that were largely celtic and later celto-romans from Britain.

This late wave it's responsable for names of places like Galicia and Britona.

[Callaecus]

I have come accross several websites claiming that North West Spain and bits of Northern Portugal (Galicia) have a celtic speaking population, or at least there are people there claiming celtic descent. Is this true?

 

Northern Portugal and Galicia are today two different entities, though in the Roman period they both constituted the Roman province of Gallaecia.

 

As far as having any current Celtic-speaking populations, I can assure you that nobody in Portugal and Spain speaks any Celtic language; all languages spoken here come from Latin.

 

Regarding the Celtic descent, well, that's more problematic. When the Romans arrived to Hispania, a Northern Portugal and Spain were occupied by Celtic-speaking populations and some Celtic words still survive today. However, this does not prove that there was a large (if any) influx of Celtic migrants into this area. After all, we are all speaking English in this forum, but that is not the native language of many of us. In my opinion, I think it is more likely that Celt was a lingua franca in large parts of Europe in those days, due to a little know process of cultural transmission. It was the Celtic culture that was moving around Europe and not a people.

 

Finally, the main reason why more recently there has been an emphasis in Northern Portugal and in Galicia about their Celtic heritage is due to political reasons, that is, it is about creating a common past between both areas so that, together, they can resist better the centralisation attempts of the capital cities of both countries.

[edgewaters]

One interesting line of theory lately is that of the "Atlantic facade", an indigenous prehistoric culture encompassing everything from Denmark and the British Isles down to Spain. Genetic data seems to support the notion. If so, then France was an axis through which waves of linguistic, cultural, and technological innovation periodically spread from the Alpine regions into the Atlantic facade, from the Beaker "guild" onward through to Hallstatt and La Tene cultures. Conceivably, some or most of these waves of change may have come about without any large migrations, only a minor trickle of people (this is looking especially certain in the case of the Beakers).

[Axel Wers]

I wondered what happened with Visigoths after fall against muslims early 8th century. They were wiped out completely or -some- of them are predecessors of modern spanish people?

[Aurelia]

Hello and welcome, Axel!

 

As far as I know, when the Moors invaded the Iberian peninsula, the Visigoths retreated to the north of what is now Portugal and Spain (Asturia, Galicia, etc) and there they remained until the Reconquista. I guess that with time they mixed with other local populations but names and words of Germanic origin have survived to this day. When travelling through Portugal about 10 years ago, I remember visiting cities like Braga and Guimaraes in the north, which still had many castles and fortresses of Christian Germanic origin. Also many people in the north tend to be fairer than in the south. My own Portuguese ancestors come mostly from the north and some of them were blond as Germans (as am I). 

[Axel Wers]

Hi Aurelia, thanks

 

I read some info about Visigoths, but everything stopped sometimes in 721 AD when last visigothic ruler Ardo died. There is some information that some Visigoths converted to islam and mixed with Moors. Other could mixed with roman-hispanian people, but.............

 

This page shows that "german" haplogroups almost disappeared in spanish gene pool. So Visigoths probably were completely assimilated in all aspects. Like Hungarians completely lost their uralo-finnic gene pool.

[Aurelia]

Hi Axel,

 

It's very possible that the Visigoths mixed with the Roman-Iberian population, i guess that would make sense. 

 

This page shows that "german" haplogroups almost disappeared in spanish gene pool. So Visigoths probably were completely assimilated in all aspects. Like Hungarians completely lost their uralo-finnic gene pool.

 

I did notice, however, that both Portugal and Spain score quite high for R1b: Italo-Celtic, Germanic; Hittite Armenian, Tocharian. They are more likely to be Celtic-Germanic than Hittite-Armenian, don't you think? 

[Axel Wers]

I did notice, however, that both Portugal and Spain score quite high for R1b: Italo-Celtic, Germanic; Hittite Armenian, Tocharian. They are more likely to be Celtic-Germanic than Hittite-Armenian, don't you think? 

 

Yes, but we have to analyze what R1b group includes. I found this:

 

The Germanic branch (S21/U106)

 

The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany.

 

(..)

 

R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.

 

(...)

 

The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor.

 

 

Based on this, R1b group in spanish gene pool doesn't come from the Visigoths.

[Aurelia]

Based on this, R1b group in spanish gene pool doesn't come from the Visigoths.

 

Hmm, then I wonder where the R1b gene comes from. Perhaps the Celtiberian tribes?

[Axel Wers]

I think yes. Celtic gene pool is contained in almost whole western population.

 

I read few years ago article about origin of europen population. All Europeans have about 10 (ten) common ancestors.