Antony And Octavian

[phil25]

Without Caesar's will, Octavian would not have had the loyalty of Caesar's veterans nor the resources to accomplish their goals. Without Caesar's will, the senate would have had no reason whatever to "praise him, honor him, and put him aside", as Cicero famously suggested they do. Without Caesar's will, Octavian could not have outcompeted Antony.

 

The interesting question is what Antony would have done with no Octavian around. The latter was no great shakes on the battlefield (even a tyro like Brutus defeated him), but Antony was obviously easy to outwit, outlast, and outcompete in politics, which is why he always had to resort to his soldiers to get out of a jam. In no sense was Antony Caesar's heir, and I'm very far from a fan of Caesar.

 

Well, Cato, one can't have everything!!

 

I don't think Antonius was such a fool - like most Romans he was an amateur, but his rivals and competitors were largely of a similar ilk.

 

I think he might have had problems had he come up against an Agrippa who clearly had enormous talent as a general and as an administrator, but then Agrippa was not such a great politician.

 

In the early 30s BC Antonius' auctoritas and dignitas were immense, but that in part depended on Philippi. Without an Octavian to pique him into action, I think Antonius might well have allowed a form of thre Republic to re-emerge, as I have said elsewhere.

 

My own view would be that he might still have set up a dynasty in the east with Cleopatra, and have beaten Constantine to his setlement by some 300 years!! He might easily have disappeared in a renewed bout of civil war, however. I don't for a moment believe that Antonius could have restored stability as Octavian did.

 

Phil

[P.Clodius]

even a tyro like Brutus defeated him

 

Are you speaking of Decimus Brutus at Mutina?

[M. Porcius Cato]

even a tyro like Brutus defeated him

Are you speaking of Decimus Brutus at Mutina?

 

No, the liberator Marcus Junius Brutus in the First Battle of Philippi. Brutus ate Octavian's lunch.

 

Octavian's military prowess came only from Marcus Agrippa, who had previously served under Cato and was later set to be executed by Caesar the Merciful, but Octavian intervened and by his clemency captured his most valuable military asset.

 

If Agrippa had joined Cato in his trip from Utica to Elysium, Octavian would have been a footnote in history.

[P.Clodius]

You learn something new everyday, what are your sources for Caesar's condemnation of Aggripa, Aggripa's service under Cato?

[M. Porcius Cato]

You learn something new everyday, what are your sources for Caesar's condemnation of Aggripa, Aggripa's service under Cato?

For Agrippa and Octavian, see http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/octavian.php

 

BTW, Octavian fought on the same side as Decimus Brutus in Mutina. Together they defeated Antony, who was sent home licking his wounds. Had Antony been killed at the battle, Caesar's heir would probably have been absorbed as junior member into the optimate faction, which would have loved to have had him lest he join forces with Caesar's avengers. For that bit of strategem, we can thank Cicero, who knew a canny political talent when he saw it.

 

Actually, I think I screwed up. Agrippa the future general and bestest-buddy of Octavian did serve under Cato as I said, but it was his brother who was to be executed by Caesar (also presumably for fighting under Cato, but that's unclear). Also, the ancient source for the execution bit was Nicolaus of Damascus, who isn't very reliable.

[Virgil61]

I don't think Antonius was such a fool - like most Romans he was an amateur, but his rivals and competitors were largely of a similar ilk.

 

I've always thought the best comment on Antony comes from a German historian named Christian Meier in his biography of Casear; "Antony was an excellent 'second-man' who wanted to be a 'first-man'."

[P.Clodius]

Octavian fought on the same side as Decimus Brutus in Mutina.

 

Octavian fought against Anthony. Anthony just so happened to be laying siege to Mutina where Decimus Brutus was. See Octavian's reception of Decimus Brutus after the battle.

who was sent home licking his wounds.

He retreated to Gaul

 

Had Antony been killed at the battle, Caesar's heir would probably have been absorbed as junior member into the optimate faction

This conjecture is sumpremely unlikely. Octavian was himself one of the most radical caesarians, not to mention the others, Balbus, Opius, et al.

 

For that bit of strategem, we can thank Cicero

Awesome strategem on Cicero's part. He legitimized Octavian's private raising of troops (illegal) by giving him a pro command (don't remember if it was propraetor or proconsul). Of course, Cicero realized his folly after Forum Gallorum.

 

The reference to Aggripa serving under Cato, this is the only place I have ever read this. I'd be interested in knowing where this little tidbit was gleaned from. PP?

Edited December 20, 2005 by P.Clodius

[Primus Pilus]

The reference to Aggripa serving under Cato, this is the only place I have ever read this. I'd be interested in knowing where this little tidbit was gleaned from. PP?

 

Cato corrected himself earlier on that... that it was Agrippa's brother and not Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa who served under Cato in Africa. (If we can believe Nicolaus of Damascus.)

 

The only reference I am aware of...

After finishing that war also, Caesar returned to Rome, having granted pardon to a very few of the captives who fell to him because they had not learned wisdom in the earlier wars. Then the following incident occurred: there was a particular associate and friend of Octavius, Agrippa, who had been educated at the same place and who was a very special friend of his. His brother was with Cato and treated with much respect; he had participated in the Libyan War, but was at this time taken captive. Although Octavius had never yet asked anything of Caesar he wanted to beg the prisoner off, but he hesitated because of modesty and at the same time because he saw how Caesar was disposed toward those who had been captured in that war. However, he made bold to ask it, and had his request granted. Thereupon he was very glad at having rescued a brother for his friend and he was praised by others for employing his zeal and right of intercession first of all for a friend's safety.

[P.Clodius]

So this implies Octavian was in North Africa with Caesar?

[Primus Pilus]

So this implies Octavian was in North Africa with Caesar?

 

If I recall correctly I believe it was after Caesar returned to Rome and before going to Hispania.