Spartan JKM Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 I hope this can be fun and elucidating!! I'll simply give my opinion why I chose whom I did as antiquity's greatest military commander, and we can work down from there. OK? I cut the list off at the mid 7th century. This may be too far along for the period known as antiquity, but I wanted to include a couple of greats from the A.D. 600s. It does seem the ancients were both the thinking and fighting head of their armies much more than modern commanders, whose junior officers played a more pivotal role. That may be debatable. I have added some admirals, and have done the best to my knowledge to include commanders of the Orient (a politically correct term for the timeperiod). In my opinion, Alexander the Great was the greatest military commander of the ancient age, possibly of all time. His ability to successfully adapt strategy and tactics to virtually every branch of warfare sets him apart from every other great commander. He took his army some 20,000 miles in 13 years, not once suffering a major setback, let alone a defeat. I'll be glad to expound on this. TIER 1 THE BEST COMMANDERS OF ANTIQUITY Alexander III Alexandros III Philippou Makedonon 'the Great' (Gaugamela 331 B.C.) Hannibal Hannibal Barca (Cannae 216 B.C.) Publius Cornelius Scipio Scipio Africanus Major (Ilipa 206 B.C.) Gaius Julius Caesar (Pharsalus 48 B.C.) Belisarius Flavius Belisarius (Constantinople 559 A.D.) Epaminondas (Leuctra 371 B.C.) Philip II King of Macedon (Chaeronea 338 B.C.) Khalid ibn al-Walid the Sword of Allah (Yarmuk River 636 A.D.) TIER 2 These commanders are the next level. I do not rank these; they are listed chronologically by their deaths. Tuthmosis III Thutmose III, Pharaoh of Egypt Cyrus Achaemenid King of Persia 'the Great' Shi Huang-ti Chao Cheng, Emperor of the Qin (unified China in 221 B.C.) Seleucus I Diadochi and Seleucid Founder 'Nicator' Pyrrhus King of Epirus Gaius Marius Quintus Sertorius Lucius Licinius Lucullus Ponticus Pompey Gnaeus Pompeius 'Magnus' Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa Trajan Marcus Ulpius Trajanus, Roman Emperor 'Optimus Princeps' Aurelian Lucius Domitius Aurelianus, Roman Emperor 'Restitutor Orbis' Constantine I Flavius Valerius Constantinus, Roman Emperor 'the Great' Attila the Hun 'the Scourge of God' Narses Heraclius Flavius Heraclius Augustus, Byzantine Emperor TIER 3 These commanders had some positive results in their careers. Some I have possibly underrated or overrated. BEFORE CHRIST Sargon King of Akkad 'the Great', Suppiluliumas Hittite King, Rameses II Pharaoh of Egypt, Gideon Jerub-baal, Wu Wang Chi Fa 'the Martial King', Tiglath Pileser I King of Assyria, Chou Kung Chi Tan, Ashurnasirpal II King of Assyria, Shalmaneser III King of Assyria, Tiglath-Pileser III King of Assyria, Sargon II King of Assyria, Sennacherib King of Assyria, Esarhaddon King of Assyria, Ashurbanipal King of Assyria, Ji Zhonger Duke Wen of Jin, Nabopolasser King of Babylonia, Cyaxeres King of Media, Nebuchadnezzar II King of Babylonia, Sun Tzu (Wu) Honorable Sun, Darius I King of Persia 'the Great', Artaphrenes the Elder, Miltiades, Leonidas I King of Sparta, Gelon Tyrant of Syracuse, Pausanius, Leotychides, Themistocles, Cimon, Leosthenes, Cincinnatus Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, Gaius Servilius Ahala, Sitalkes Odrysian King 'the Great', Pagondas, Brasidas, Hannibal son of Hanno, Gylippus, Alcibiades, Himilco, Lysander, Agesilaus King of Sparta, Iphicrates, Conon, Marcus Furius Camillus, Pelopidas, Dionysius Tyrant of Syracuse, Artaxerxes II King of Persia 'Mnemon', Xenophon, Marcus Valerius Corvus, Titus Manlius Torquatus Imperiosus, Timoleon, Memnon of Rhodes, Parmenio the Old General, Craterus, Antipitar, Antigonus I Cyclops, Chandragupta Maurya Mauryan Founder 'Sandracottus', Quintus Fabius Maximus Rullianus, Agathocles Tyrant of Syracuse, Ptolemy I Soter, Demetrius I Demetrius Poliorcetes, Lysimachus, Publius Cornelius Dolabella, Spurius Carvilius Maximus, Appius Claudius Caudex, Manius Curius Dentatus, Xanthippus, Marcus Atilius Regulus, Asoka, Adherbal, Gaius Lutatius Catalus, Hamilcar Barca Lightning, Gaius Duilius, Ming T'ien, Chou T'o, Lucius Aemilius Papus, Gaius Atilius Regulus, Lucius Caecilius Metellus, Publius Cornelius Scipio the Elder, Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Calvus, Gaius Flaminius, Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus, Marcus Claudius Marcellus, Hasdrubal Barca, Gaius Claudius Nero, Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator, Mago Barca, Syphax King of the Masaesylii, Titus Manlius Torquatus, Marcus Valerius Laevinus, Marcus Livius Salinator, Attalus I King of Pergamum 'Soter', Hsiang Yu Xiang Yu, Liu Bang Kao-tse 'Gaozu', Manius Acilius Glabrio, Muttines (Mottones), Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiagenes, Manius Acilius Glabrio, Antiochus III King of Syria 'the Great', Prusias I King of Bithynia 'Cholos', Philopoemen the Last of the Greeks, Marcus Fulvius Nobilior, Mete Han Shanyu of the Xiongnu 'Maodun', Lucius Valerius Flaccus, Titus Quinctius Flamininus, Philip V King of Macedon, Antiochus IV King of Syria 'Epiphanes', Judas Maccabaeus the Hammer, Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus, Gaius Laelius, Eumenes II King of Pergamum 'Soter', Masinissa King of the Massylii, Viriathus, Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus Africanus Minor, Lucius Caecilius Metellus Dalmaticus, Wei Qing, Ho Qu-bing, Quintus Caecilius Metellus Macedonicus, Liu Che (Wu Di) Han Emperor, Jugurtha King of Numidia, Quintus Caecilius Metellus Numidicus, Sulla Lucius Cornelius Sulla 'Felix', Spartacus, Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius, Mithridates VI (Eupator Dionysus) King of Pontus 'the Great', Ariovistus King of the Suebi 'Friend', Marcus Licinius Crassus Dives, Surena Eran Suren-Pahlev, Vercingetorix King of the Arverni, Juba I King of Numidia, Pharnaces II King of Pontus, Orodes II King of Parthia, Publius Ventidius, Titus Statilius Taurus, Marcus Aemilius Lepidus, and Nero Claudius Drusus Decimus Claudius Nero. ANNO DOMINI Augustus Caesar Gaius Octavius, Germanicus Julius Caesar Nero Claudius Germanicus, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Cunobelinus King of the Catuvellauni, Arminius (Hermann der Cherusker) Chief of the Cherusci, Tiberius Tiberius Claudius Nero, Caratacus (Caradoc) King of the Catuvellauni, Publius Ostorius Scapula, Liu Xiu (Han-Guang Wu Di) Han Emperor, Aulus Plautius, Boudicca (Boadicea) Queen of the Iceni, Gaius Paulinus Suetonius, Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo, Vespasian Titus Flavius Vespasianus, Eleazar bin Yair, Flavius Josephus Joseph ben Matthias, Decebalus Dacian King, Bar Kochba Simon bar Kochba, Marcus Aurelius, Yuan Shao Benchu, Severus Lucius Septimius Severus, Cao Cao Wei Wang 'Mengde', Zhang Liao, Chu-ko Liang Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei, Maximinus Gaius Julius Verus Maximinus 'Thrax', Ardashir I Sassanid Founder of Persia, Lu Yi Li Xun, Sun Quan, Gallienus Publius Licinius Egnatius Gallienus, Publius Septimius Odaenathus King of Palmyra, Claudius II Marcus Aurelius Claudius 'Gothicus', Shapur I Sassanid King of Persia, Marcus Cassianius Latinius Postumus Emperor of Gaul, Iberia, and Britain, Zenobia Queen of Palmyra, Shi Le Great Chieftain, Constantius II Illyricum 'Junior Emperor', Ran Min, Julian Flavius Claudius Julianus, Shapur II Sassanid King of Persia, Fritigern King of the Visigoths, Theodosius I Flavius Theodosius 'the Great', Flavius Stilicho, Alaric I King of the Visigoths, Ataulf King of the Visigoths 'Father Wolf', Wallia King of the Visigoths, Rua the Hun, Breda the Hun, Flavius Aetius, Geiseric King of the Vandals, Odoacar (Odavacer) King of the Heruli, Clovis I King of the Franks, Theodoric King of the Ostrogoths 'the Great', Arthur King Arthur (legendary), Mundus, and Totila (Baduila) King of the Ostrogoths. Thanks and enjoy, Spartan JKM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Well done, that must have taken a while Plenty of names i agree with at any rate on this list, although i won't advertise my alternate views, they'll just spark another Caesar v Alexander debate. I'm glad Heraclius got a mention, he seems to be ignored in these things, as well as other Eastern Roman Empire Generals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 That's a lot of work. Nice list, my initial impression is I'd put Pomepy up into the second tier; his campaigns up until his first retirement are impressive. For the Romans I'd add Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa [and delete Augustus], Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo [under Claudius and Nero] and Vespasian [i may have missed them if they were listed] to the group. Tiberius Caesar Augustus might be worth a mention, it's often forgotten he was a fairly successful general in his own right when he was younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan JKM Posted October 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 We are on the same page Virgil61!! I came back to edit that very issue - I far understated Pompey. Thank you for the replies -you and Tobias. Agrippa is on TIER 2. Vespasian and Corbulo are on TIER 3. Augustus was moderate enough a military commander, in my opinion. That is definitely debatable, particularly as I place Agrippa, his right-hand man, very high. I don't know Tiberius Caesar Augustus, unless by another name. Thanks, Spartan JKM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Augustus was moderate enough a military commander, in my opinion. That is definitely debatable, particularly as I place Agrippa, his right-hand man, very high. I don't know Tiberius Caesar Augustus, unless by another name. Tiberius Caesar Augustus, better known as the Emperor Tiberius. His campaigns in Germany and especially to suppress the Pannonian revolt were fairly successful although they're probably just not enough to make the list. Had his successful brother Drusus not died from an accident he would've been a contender. I've never been able to make sense of Augustus' strength as a general. Perhaps it was his moral presence as JC's adopted son that gave him an edge. He was generally able to pick good men to lead his armies tactically-- Agrippa, Drusus, Tiberius-- which is a talent in itself. Varus being an exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLavius Valerius Constantinus Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Quid proliximum inventarium ducum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilcar Barca Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Thats one hell of a compliation. I commend your research I would of course challenge some of the names appearing in order of those tiers, particulary Claudius II and Clovis, I would certainly have ranked them up from the gutter level. How Lucius Cornelius Sulla didn't make it to either of the top two tiers is surprising as well. However, owing to the multitude of names that you had to sort through I won't kick up a fuss. Personaly I rate Caesar as the greatest but I don't want to get to drawn into another Alexander vs Caesar debate because that argument has long since exhausted itself with no clear advantagee. I'm sure all the forum veterans would agree on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 most commoner will easily regocnized these famous name... ============= Israel King David Greece Alexander The Great Chartage Hannibal Barca of Cannae Rome Gaius Julius Caesar Constantinople Belisarius Flavius Belisarius Macedon Philip II King of Macedon Khalid ibn al-Walid the most well known Muslim General Eagypt Tuthmosis III Pharaoh of Egypt Persia Cyrus Achaemenid King of Persia , the Great China Shi Huang-ti Chao Cheng Emperor of the Qin , unified China Seleucus I Diadochi and Seleucid Founder 'Nicator' Seleucids Founder Rome Gaius Marius Father of the Commoner Legion Rome Publius Cornelius Scipio First Tactician and Strategist Constantine I (Flavius Valerius Constantinus) Roman Emperor 'the Great' for Christianity Rameses II Pharaoh of Egypt Sargon II King of Assyria Cyaxeres King of Media Nebuchadnezzar II King of Babylonia Darius I King of Persia 'the Great' Leonidas I King of Sparta Artaxerxes II King of Persia Ptolemy I Soter Pyrrhus King of Epirus ============================================= what a good research job Spartan JKM, i love it reading again on my next visit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sextus Roscius Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 A great list, my only problem is that I think sulla should be moved up a higher teir. He was a great general and one of the few awarded the grass crown (I thank tobias for that). I believe that he deserves a greater position than what he got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 Spartan JKM that is some intense work. I mean, I pride myself on knowing something of the ancient world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilcar Barca Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 I was pleased to see that Epaminondas made it to the top tier, he was in my opinion the greatest Greek general after Alexander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 An excellent list Spartan.. I was worried that this would turn into another Caesar vs. Alexander type thread, but I'm pleased that it hasn't. I suppose the next step would be compiling a list of battles that all these various generals participated in. I personally think it would be a good project to add to the unrv.com military section in some sort of interconnected table format. Has me thinking anyway.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Marcellus Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Overall, great list. I disagree with the location of a couple names. BUt where I would put them would depend on the different possible criterias one could use for such a list. IE. Are we judging on land conquered, ability to motivate the troops and accomplish a mission, never losing a battle, winning a war despite losing major battles, fighting weak opponents vs strong opponents. I'll only comment on one person. And this is based off of fighting weak opponents vs strong ones. I'm a bit of a fan of Vercingetorix. He commanded not much more than an undisciplined rabble and managed to stick it to JC for quite awhile. Were he king of the Gauls and able to command the loyalty and resources of all his kind I believe JC would've died before he saw Gaul subdued. If JC is a tier one, his most able opponent (who was an uncivilized barbarian relatively speaking) should at least be high up on tier 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilcar Barca Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Hmm, I' not sure about Vercingtorix. Sure he bet Caesar at Georgovia, but when he outnumbered him 4:1 at Alesia he failed miserably. Then again, its hard to look good when your fighting Caesar. I guess the same can be said for everyone who fought him though. Kinda feel sorry for them, in the long run they never really stood a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 i could miss this names(in reading)...where is Atilla the Hun and Genghis Khan name? this people name should be worth mentioning, Spartan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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