Could Justinian Have Re-united The East And West?

[Tobias]

Off topic, does anyone think that it was really dirty of Heraclius when he attacked the Visigoths on a sunday when they were at mass during the Hispanian campaign.

 

Indicative of the times i'm afraid. Did the huns not attack the romans when they were in churchs? Did not Mehmet II murder christians in the Saint Sophia Cathedral when he conquered the city? All the strong rulers of the times had no hesitation of taking advantage of peoples if they weren't prepared for war.

The plague Justinian faced was a multi-edged problem. Apart from robbing the empire of revenue, it was seen as a punishment by god by the christians, and a retribution of the gods by pagans, and this didn't help Justinian's cause at all.

Edited November 13, 2005 by Tobias

[trajen777]

After reading info on Justinians campaigns, I've finally comed to realize how much an effect a plague or an outbreak of diseases can have on an empire. Thus, I believe Justinian no matter what, could not combat it. And so he lost taxpayers and most importantly,couldn't find any soldiers, which now he had to rely on the barbarians for recruitment. We know how that turned out when the Western empire experimented with that option.

Off topic, does anyone think that it was really dirty of Heraclius when he attacked the Visigoths on a sunday when they were at mass during the Hispanian campaign.

 

 

I think the issues Justinian faced were pretty simple. Byzantium could have easily defeated the Persians under Justinian if the plague had not broken out. The extra revenue from Africa and from Italy as well as the troops that could have been produced would have been a tipping point. In face the reason that the Persians attacked Byz is the fear that a partially reunified Byz / Rome would have too great a resource base to deal with. The problem was not defeating Persia but instead conconq Persia which was a tribal confederation of Calvary. Rome won many of the battles against Persia and the Byz HC armed with both bow and lance reduced the Persian ability to pin cushion the Roman sold. With arrows.

 

After Justin

[Ludovicus]

If I remember correctly, Justinians attempts to retake the city of Rome cause a tremendous amount of damage there. The "barbarians" had been doing a nice job of carrying on Roman institutions and living standards. Along comes Justinian's armies which battle inside the ancient capital. They fighting destroys the City's political and physical infrastructure. Of course, the plague helped, too. Shortly thereafter the Senate ceases to exist. The population of Rome contracts even further, possibly to as few as 30,000. Many Romans within the city and in the surrounding countryside view the Eastern Romans with their destructive armies and high taxes as far worse than the barbarians.

[Tobias]

If I remember correctly, Justinians attempts to retake the city of Rome cause a tremendous amount of damage there.

 

Only too true i'm afraid. The Ostrogoths and others had been carrying out the Roman laws, systems, routines and maintaining the institutions. But they sure as hell weren't going to let go of Rome without a fight. When Ostrogothic resistance ceased in 562, the city of Rome was a shadow of its former self. Justinian had already abolished the Senate there, and the office of Consul altogether. The people of Rome had assisted them, as they had come to respect and tolerate the "Barbarians".

To wander a tad, I believe this engendered respect may indicate how the "barbarians" may have behaved if they had originally been treated better by the Romans.

 

Many Romans within the city and in the surrounding countryside view the Eastern Romans with their destructive armies and high taxes as far worse than the barbarians.

 

Exactly. Belisarius' and Narses' campaigns in Italy were horrendously expensive economically and militarily. Taxes imposed throughout the expanded empire would have been horrifically high, which would encourage anyone to rebel, explaining the speed with which Justinian's territories melted away (although the plague, the invasion of the Persians and the Arabs certainly helped this along.)

Edited December 18, 2005 by Tobias

[Neos Dionysos]

To wander a tad, I believe this engendered respect may indicate how the "barbarians" may have behaved if they had originally been treated better by the Romans.

 

Exactly, one has to wonder of some notorious situations like that of the Goths when Valens allowed them to settle. Had the Roman officials in charge of them had no treated them so terribly and took every advantage of them during a famine. The entire rebellion and destruction of the land would never have happened and you would have had thousands good soldiers to bolster the Imperial ranks.

 

Many Romans within the city and in the surrounding countryside view the Eastern Romans with their destructive armies and high taxes as far worse than the barbarians.

 

Yep, and this is where the seeds of hatred start and would eventually go into the splitting of the churchs and the contempt of East and West. In the end, I remember coming across a saying that was amongst the people of Constantinople just before the siege by Mehemt II, "Better the sultan's turban than the pope's hat."

 

Exactly. Belisarius' and Narses' campaigns in Italy were horrendously expensive economically and militarily. Taxes imposed throughout the expanded empire would have been horrifically high, which would encourage anyone to rebel, explaining the speed with which Justinian's territories melted away (although the plague, the invasion of the Persians and the Arabs certainly helped this along.)

 

Another event that helped speed it along was the relegious persecution that Justinian pursued in the region. He, along with Theodora, were a certain sect of Christianity, (I cannot remember offhand), and they tried to forcibly convert and remove the other groups from the Eastern Lands, kinda like how Arianism was rooted out and destroyed before it, (though at this time it was still hanging on I think). This couple with the above is the perfect time for an invasion or revolt to occur.

[Tobias]

He, along with Theodora, were a certain sect of Christianity, (I cannot remember offhand)

 

Justinian was stolidly Orthodox, with strong faith in the Trinity and i believe the Incarnation, as well as being a bit of an advocate for monasticism.