Pygmalion Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) In Strabo the nature and whereabouts of the pillars of Hercules' was subject to debate. the strait by Calpe Onoba, a city of Iberia: considering that here were the Pillars They reached Gades and founded the temple in the eastern part of the island, the capes in the strait are the pillars of tis temple The pillars are two small islands, one of which is named the Island of Hera (Juno) Planctæ and the Symplgades supposing them to be the Pillars, which Pindar calls the Gates of Gades Strabo 3.5.5 For nothing else resembles pillars around the strait but those eight-cubit bronze pillars in the temple of Heracles in Gadeira (οὐδὲν γὰρ ἐοικέναι στήλαις τὰ περὶ τὸν πορθμόν. οἱ δὲ τὰς ἐν τῷ Ἡρακλείῳ τῷ ἐν Γαδείροις χαλκᾶς ὀκταπήχεις) The most interesting theory is that these are temple pillars and the wiki entry of the Temple of Hercules says it was flanked by two large columns according to Latin historian Pomponius Mela. Quote Temple_of_Hercules_Gaditanus (wiki) The sanctuary was likely a complex of buildings where the main structure could be accessed through a gateway flanked by two large columns. As described by Silius Italicus in the 1st century BC According to the Latin historian Pomponius Mela, the temple housed the remains of Hercules, contributing to its immense fame. Moreover, the temple held renowned relics such as the belt of Teucer, a Greek hero and son of Telamon, and the tree of Pygmalion, whose fruits were said to be emeralds. Temple of Hercules Gaditanus - Wikipedia In Herodotus, the temple of Hercules in Tyre was flanked by two large columns, and this Hercules was the dead hero. Hence, Pomponius mentions that the temple housed the remains of Hercules. In fact, the ghost or phantom of this deceased Hercules was encountered by Odysseus within the gates of Hades in Odyssey 11.601. In Homer, the term used is "Πύλαι Ἀΐδαο" (Gates of Hades), and the pillars of Hercules are also referred to as "Πύλαι Γαδειρίδες" (Gates of Gades). Quote Herodotus 2.44 I took ship for Tyre in Phoenicia, where I had learned by inquiry that there was a holy temple of Heracles. There I saw it, richly equipped with many other offerings, besides two pillars (στῆλαι δύο), one of refined gold, one of emerald. They are two worships of Heracles, one Heracles as to an immortal, and calling him the Olympian, but to the other bringing offerings as to a dead hero Herodotus describes one of the pillars as emerald and Pomponius Mela talks about a tree at the Hercules's temple whose fruits were said to be emeralds, but I have determined that these fruits are pears through my study of Phoenician language and this fruit is also sacred to Hero/Juno. The golden apples associated with the daughters of Hesperus are pears which are said to reside near Gades. cf. Island of Juno. Quote Appian, Wars in Spain 11.65 He (Fabius) .. sailed through the straits of Gadeira (Gades) offering sacrifice to Hercules (ἐς Γάδειρα διέπλευσε τὸν πορθμόν, Ἡρακλεῖ θύσων) Fabius Maximus here sailed through the Straits of Gades offering sacrifice to Hercules. In Plato, Critias 113 from which the story of Atlantis came from It mentions that the twin brother of Atlas, son of Cleito was named "Gadeirus Eumelos", the eponym of Gades and "Cleito" (Κλειτὼ) resembles the suffix of the name Hercules (Ἡρακλῆς) and the word κλεῖς (Lt. Clavis), a word for straits. κλεῖς (Kleis) of promontories, straits, etc., Κληῗδες or “Κληΐδες (LSJ). This also why in Rev 1:18 it reads κλεις αδου "Keys of Hades" (Κληῗδες Ἀΐδαο) see also Isaiah 38:10 𐤔𐤏𐤓𐤉 𐤔𐤀𐤅𐤋 (Πύλαι Ἀΐδαο) "Gates of Hades" and Psalm 116:3 𐤌𐤑𐤓𐤉𐤟𐤔𐤀𐤅𐤋 (Στένον Ἀΐδαο) "Straits of Hades". Quote Herodotus 5.108 The Phoenicians were sailing around the headland which is called the keys of Cyprus Φοίνικες περιέπλεον τὴν ἄκρην αἳ καλεῦνται Κληῖδες τῆς Κύπρου The Phoenician refer to Hercules under the name Melcart who also appears in Greek mythology as "Melicertes Palaemon" and this hero also died, Dolphins carried his deceased body into the port of Isthmus, a narrow piece of land connecting two large areas hence also envisioning "pillars of Hercules", Isthmus is called πόντοιο πύλαι "gates of the sea", Κορίνθου πύλαι "gates of Corinth" and Πελοποννήσου τὰς πύλας "Gates of Peloponnese" in ancient Greek writing. Edited March 26 by Pygmalion grammar, text size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) Interesting article. I know nothing about ancient mythology. I got myself into an ancient rabbit hole, nevertheless, when I realized that the Greek Herakles is different from the Roman Hercules. The article below delves into their differences: http://messagenetcommresearch.com/myths/essays/herakleshercules.html This article emphasizes their similarites: https://ancient-literature.com/heracles-vs-hercules/ Edited March 26 by guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidoLaMoto Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 In regards the Pillars, did not Plato claim they were mountains at Gibraltar, and did he not pre-date the other authors cited above? In regards religion, don't forget we're not talking verifiable science/history but figments of human imagination (When you talk to God, you're praying. When He talks to you, you're schizophrenic.)...Notice how St Nick morphed over the years from a nice old priest leaving apples on doorsteps to the fat guy in red velvet invented by a Cocoa Cola advertising guy, eventually flying thru the air with reindeer, acquiring elves and a North Pole toy shop. Dionysus emphasized the Greek origins of the Italians. They no doubt evolved different details in the religion originally carried to Italy. Cf-- an early 20th century prayer meeting in Appalachia to High Mass by The Pope in Rome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pygmalion Posted March 27 Author Report Share Posted March 27 Ancient Greek writings emphasize the Phoenician origin of Dionysus by portraying him as the grandson of Cadmus of Tyre. It appears that Hercules was originally the grandson of Cadmus. The largest temple the Romans built was the temple of Bacchus that they built it in Phoenicia in what is known as Baalbek (πόλις Διός καὶ Βάκχου/Urbs Jovis et Bacchi). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pygmalion Posted March 27 Author Report Share Posted March 27 (edited) 15 hours ago, guy said: Interesting article. I know nothing about ancient mythology. I got myself into an ancient rabbit hole, nevertheless, when I realized that the Greek Herakles is different from the Roman Hercules. The article below delves into their differences: http://messagenetcommresearch.com/myths/essays/herakleshercules.html This article emphasizes their similarites: https://ancient-literature.com/heracles-vs-hercules/ Herakles and Hercules are very much the same god with minor differences and not the same Hercules whom Fabius Maximus was offering to in Appian, Wars in Spain 11.65. Appian, Wars in Spain 1.2 It is my opinion that Tartessus was then the city on the seashore which is now called Carpessus. I think also that the Phoenicians built the temple of Hercules which stands at the straits. The religious rites performed there are still of Phoenician type, and the god is considered by the worshippers the Tyrian, not the Theban, Hercules. But I will leave these matters to the antiquaries. Here it mentions two distinct versions of Hercules, one called ὁ Τυρίων (Tyrian) and the other called ὁ Θηβαῖός (Thebes) Edited March 27 by Pygmalion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidoLaMoto Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 I was referrkng to D of Halacanarssus. His Roman Antiquities was published in 7 BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pygmalion Posted March 27 Author Report Share Posted March 27 Appian describes two versions of Hercules, the Theban and the Tyrian; however, in Greek and Latin sources, Thebes is always described as being founded by Phoenicians. Quote Isocrates, Helen 10.68 Cadmus of Sidon became king of Thebes Pliny the Elder Nat. 5.17 Sidon the parent of Thebes in Boeotia Strabo 7.7 Cadmeia (Thebes) by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus Euripides, Phoenissae 1 What an unfortunate beam you shed on Thebes, the day [5] that Cadmus left Phoenicia's realm beside the sea and reached this land Quote Vergilius Maro, Aeneid 1.613 Sidonian Dido felt her heart stand still when first she looked on him; and thrilled again to hear what vast adventure had befallen so great a hero. Thus she welcomed him: “What chance, O goddess-born, o'er danger's path impels? What power to this wild coast has borne? Art thou Aeneas, great Anchises' son, whom lovely Venus by the Phrygian stream of Simois brought forth unto the day? Now I bethink me of when Teucer came to Sidon, exiled, and of Belus' power desired a second throne. For Belus then, our worshipped sire, despoiled the teeming land of Cyprus, as its conqueror and king. Quote Vergilius Maro, Aeneid 2.77 O King! I will confess, whate'er befall, the whole unvarnished truth. I will not hide my Grecian birth. Yea, thus will I begin. For Fortune has brought wretched Sinon low; but never shall her cruelty impair his honor and his truth. Perchance the name of Palamedes, Belus' glorious son, has come by rumor to your listening ears In the Aeneid Dido is called a Sidonian (Sidonia Dido) and daughter of Belus who is also father of Palamedes (Belidae nomen Palamedis) and Pygmalion in Verg. A. 1.335. I think Palamedes (Παλαμήδης) Pygmalion (Πυγμαλίων) Cadmus (Κάδμος) are the same figure and also Dido (Διδὼ) and Europa (Εὐρώπη). Quote According to the Latin historian Pomponius Mela, the temple housed the remains of Hercules, contributing to its immense fame. Moreover, the temple held renowned relics such as the belt of Teucer, a Greek hero and son of Telamon, and the tree of Pygmalion, whose fruits were said to be emeralds. Temple of Hercules Gaditanus - Wikipedia Mela says that the temple housed remains of Hercules, so then it is a tomb, in fact the Homeric definition of στήλη (Stele) is block or slab used as a memorial i.e. gravestone and this is what Phoenicians did, so the temple/tomb housing the remains of Hercules would also have a στήλη. The Phoenician word for στήλη is 𐤑𐤉𐤅𐤍 (κίων) which is also the word for Zion for the city of Zion was a Necropolis (νεκρόπολις) or a Tophet burial site. στήλη 𐤑𐤉𐤅𐤍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pygmalion Posted March 28 Author Report Share Posted March 28 The Pillars of Hercules function as a boundary but the Greek god associated with boundaries is Hermes (Ἑρμῆς) and ἑρμῆς is also a word for a pillar and ἑρμαῖον a word for barrow and tomb. In Latin Ἑρμῆς is called Mercurius and this name resembles 𐤌𐤋𐤒𐤓𐤕 Melkarth cf. Μελικέρτης Quote Titus Livius 26.44.6 when this was noticed by Scipio, who had climbed the hill which they call Mercury's Hill (tumulum, quem Mercuri) Quote tumulum a sepulchral mound, barrow, tumulus mercurius Tumulus Mercurii, near Carthago nove Promontorium Mercurii, in Africa, in Zeugitana, near Carthage promontorium promontory, headland, cape Carthage in Latin is Carthāginis and Καρχηδόνος in Greek and by comparison you can see exchange with each letter, the c/κ, t/χ and g/δ. The Phoenician 𐤒𐤓𐤕-𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕 means terra nova "new land" for the noun 𐤒𐤓𐤕 means terrae (ἐρᾶς) with πόλις its secondary meaning (πόλις comes from 𐤒𐤓𐤕) and 𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕 means ὑπόγυος; nigh at hand, fresh, new (ὑπόγυιος, ὑπογυιότατος). Ἑλλάδος "Hellas" and Γραικός "Greece" came from 𐤒𐤓𐤕 too. In Appian, Wars in Spain 1.2 the difference between Ταρτησσός (Tartessos) and Καρπησσός (Carpessos) is merely a matter of dialect, these words maybe a compound of νῆσος, νῆσσος, νᾶσσος "Island" cf. Πελοπόννησος (Pelopónnēsos). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidoLaMoto Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 Interesting etymologies you've presented. Thanks... In regards transiliterations & changes in pronunciation as words evolve from one language to another, consider, for example, how the word Yankee derives from the way the American Indians pronounced the word English. One small detail-- Carthago is the nominative case for Carthage; Carthaginis is the genitive and the root for the other case declensions. And a caveat-- translations of ancient poetry put into rhyming jingle in English are often not very true to the original but just give a general idea of what's going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pygmalion Posted March 28 Author Report Share Posted March 28 29 minutes ago, guidoLaMoto said: Interesting etymologies you've presented. Thanks... In regards transiliterations & changes in pronunciation as words evolve from one language to another, consider, for example, how the word Yankee derives from the way the American Indians pronounced the word English. One small detail-- Carthago is the nominative case for Carthage; Carthaginis is the genitive and the root for the other case declensions. And a caveat-- translations of ancient poetry put into rhyming jingle in English are often not very true to the original but just give a general idea of what's going on. I tend to put the words in the genitive since the structure of the root is usually intact in that case. sepeliō 𐤒𐤁𐤓 to bury, to perform the funeral rites of a man by burning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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