Hbo Rome and... BBC too

[M. Porcius Cato]

Can anyone provide a second confirmation that Vorenus DID say Cincinnatus? It doesn't make sense on so many levels. As a strict (if sullen) Catonian, Lucius Vorenus would have admired Cincinnatus. Second, Cincinnatus was not--to my knowledge--ever a tribune of the plebs, so he doesn't fit in the Gracchi/Antony comparison.

[Pertinax]

That was my thought as well-he certainly did say Cinncinatus! The Gracchi is understandable, Marius was the other name called.A very odd triumvirate for our subject to be amongst.

[Ursus]

The original US government system was, in a way, based on the Roman Republican system. Maybe the statue was a tribute to Rome's pre-Imperial government.

 

 

I think Washington is compared to Cincinnatus because Washington was popular enough to have become King if he had wanted. Alexander Hamilton even suggested something along those lines. However, Washington served a mere two terms in the vaguely defined office of President and then retired, much as Cincinnatus had done after serving his term as dictator.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Ursus is basically right, though he underplays it. Many of Washington's officers (not just his aide-de-camp Hamilton) conspired to make Washington king, but Washington squashed the conspiracy in a heart-breaking speech that absolutely refused the office.

 

Hamilton, btw, never understood the point of the revolution. As a symptom of his completely rotten mind, he signed his pro-Federalist letters "Caesar" to the anti-Federalists' "Cato". Is it any wonder he almost killed the republic in its cradle?

[longbow]

Wasnt he made Dictator for a second time to put down a Plebian revolt?maybe thats why Vorenus doesnt like him.

Ohio statue.

[Pertinax]

Wasnt he made Dictator for a second time to put down a Plebian revolt?maybe thats why Vorenus doesnt like him.

Ohio statue.

 

Thats right, but Vorenus is a strict believer in the religious sanctity of the Republic ,so a revolt of the plebs would be contrary to that belief (though he himself is a pleb). His attitude to plebian reform is questioned by Attia when he returns young Octavian to her, Pullo is all for Caesar "doing right by the people" , Vorenus is angered and they leave the house at that point.

[WotWotius]

First Series Premering here in Oz soon. Can't wait

 

Do you know if its the BBC or HBO Version out of curiousity.

 

I didn't know that there was any difference.

 

BBC has more sex and less politics The truncated episodes being 1,2 , 11 and 12, each of these "pairs" being edited together as single episodes.

 

You gotta love our liberal censors.

[Skarr]

Vorenus doesn't say that he is a "Catonian". It is Atia who puts this label on him when he airs his views on the Republic and he just goes along with it, accepting this label without making a big deal about it.

 

I don't think Vorenus really knows who he stands for and is very confused, especially in the way he first joins with Caesar, believing in some ideal notions about the "Republic". However, he doesn't see that the world around him has changed and that the original Republic is long dead. Caesar's brand of government, although harsh and unreasonable by the old standards, is the only viable alternative to chaos, which Rome is threatened with all the time, due to the very nature of the beast.

 

Consider the senate itself at the time. Split into factions and with no unity even among the various splinters, they all yearn for someone to take control or charge. If not Caesar, it would be someone else. Most of the senators were like sheep and possessed no opinions of their own, clinging to their precious status as it guaranteed them some modicum of life with which they could at least survive in those dangerous times, especially after the way Marius and Sulla destroyed the sanctity of Rome with all the blood that was spilled on the Rostra and with the merciless proscriptions.

 

Pompey was a feral monster and Caesar, although not as brutal as Pompey, was also a harsh man, not readily swayed by sentimental ideals that were difficult at best to understand. He was a realist, a practical man who liked to introduced broad swaths of sweeping reform, something he could not do using traditional means in the senate, due to various divisions. The only alternative, for the good of Rome, was to use his powers as dictator to introduce such reforms.

 

Vorenus, when he realizes the elections were rigged, could have walked away from Caesar, if he was truly a "Catonian". Cato would have died rather than stay on, but Vorenus compromises and goes along with Caesar's reforms, despite knowing that he was chosen by the dictator, not elected by the people in a fair and proper manner. I guess Vorenus is more modern in his approach in that regard and is like some of the politicians today, who compromise all the time as their ideals change by the minute, depending on how circumstances are.

[Pertinax]

I think Vorenus is leading us back to the HBO thread! So ill take Cinncinatus there!

 

Indeed Vorenus is called a "Deep Catonian" by Mark Anthony (" he'd follow the Eagle up Pluto's arse")also , but he himself only says he considers the Republic sacred.The Directors commentaries indicate an intention to suggest a "seduction" of Vorenus by GJC's plausibility and his own Wifes desire for material wealth-hence the "redemption" scene when Pullo is saved in the gladiatorial combat sequence -its redemption for both men , one from criminality , one from veniality , sacrificed to brotherly love. So the script is very much as Skarr suggests ,a "modernity" in Vorenus' conduct at this watershed point .

[Ursus]

Having finally finished the entire season 1 DVD, I can offer a few points.

 

Good, I thought. American production values, British acting, Italian scenery. Delightful combination. Despite any flaws, this proves the most

[spittle]

Can anyone provide a second confirmation that Vorenus DID say Cincinnatus? It doesn't make sense on so many levels. As a strict (if sullen) Catonian, Lucius Vorenus would have admired Cincinnatus. Second, Cincinnatus was not--to my knowledge--ever a tribune of the plebs, so he doesn't fit in the Gracchi/Antony comparison.

 

 

I have rewatched the scene (episode 6 - EGERIA) with subtitles and the exact dialogue is:

 

"He works with a whore and a dwarf at his side! Even Cinncinatus, Marius or the Gracchi would not demean themselves so."

To which Titus Pullo replies 'Who?'.

 

I wondered if it had something to do with Sulla and CINNA because I could find no mention of Cinncinatus in Rubicon or on Googal (I'd spelt it Cincinnatis, which may account for my lack of success).

 

ALSO Vorenus doesn't know who Cato is, they just share similar, conservative views

Antony calls him "A stonewall Catonian" and "Deep 13th".

Octavian calls him "A strict Catonian". To which Vorenus replies "If he has similar views then perhaps I am".

Edited September 3, 2006 by spittle

[WotWotius]

Antony is perfectly acted and scripted, I thought.

 

I heartily agree. I also thought that Brutus was perfectly played and scripted; he was exactly as I imagined him to be.

 

I wondered if it had something to do with Sulla and CINNA because I could find no mention of Cinncinatus in Rubicon or on Googal (I'd spelt it Cincinnatis, which may account for my lack of success).

 

No, I think Cincinnatus was a more prominent (even legendary) Roman historical figure than Cinna, who history has generally given a bad press. Besides, I think that the whole purpose of the dialogue was to indicate the ignorance of the common plebs (e.g. Pullo).

 

And the reason Cincinnatus is not mentioned in Rubicon is probably due to the fact that the book deals with the Late Republican period--Cincinnatus came much earlier.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

O.o I saw the whole season at the movie rental store. May have to indulge myself.

[Horatius]

Attia isn't very historical I guess but was my favorite character just for the role they created for her. Antony is very good too. When Antony tells Octavia 'your mother is a vile creature but I can't resist her' you just have to laugh, they are perfect for each other lol.

[Pertinax]

For your amusement and edification, I have launched a specific HBO gallery : I have numerous images please pm if something in particular tickles your fancy (does that translate to North American English?).

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1261

 

Have a look here.