Hbo Rome and... BBC too

[Princeps]

Claudius sp:

 

Caesar had an affair with Servilia (Brutus' mother) but he was NOT Brutus' father.

 

He forgave Brutus after Pharsalia but Brutus betrayed him.

 

If he had been caesar's son, then Gaius julis would not have hidden it. He was desperate to show that he could sire a son even out of (Roman) wedlock - vix Caesarion. He made his distant nephew octavian his heir.

 

if caesar had had a Roman son of his own body, do you not think that he would have sought either to adopt him (or marry the mother); or to proclaim him as heir to his estate and name?

 

Phil

 

 

Claudius asked if there was a "kind of" fatherly relationship, not a literal paternaty.

 

I'm not sure, but if I had to take an un-educated guess, I'd say his relationship with Antony would be stronger (as he had been to war with Caesar, and did not betray him in the end). However, I also think that Brutus' betrayal was justified.

[phil25]

Butl, Princeps, like Brutus, maybe you're wrong!!

[Pertinax]

final parts shown together-unexpectedly! and an announcement that a new series will be shown next year.

Excellent , in sorry its over .

 

the 13th! the 13th!

[Princeps]

Hmmm, I'm slightly dubious than I was before.

 

I have already expressed my dissappointment at the lack of epic battles. This is acceptable - budget constraints and what not. What's not so good though, is the historical innaccuracies, and more so, the plot inadequacies.

 

I didn't see the first of the double episode, so I can't comment. I saw the very end of the first/start of the second part, where Vorenus saves Pullo from death in the arena. If I was being kind, I'd call this silly. If I was being unkind, I'd call it "The worst bits of Hollywood" (This description can be applied equally to Vorenus' wife's suicide).

 

Almost as dissappointing was the promotion of Vorenus to Senator. I'm not sure about what precident had been previously set in this regard. I would have thought he would need at least some personal wealth, but meh. What I really didn't like about it was how "convenient" (ie lazy) it was as a plot twist.

 

Also, another question - it seemed as though Octavian was situated in Rome at the time of the assassination in this last episode. Am I missing something here?

 

Overall a good series. Hopefully it will be better next series (most shows do get better as the progress).

[Pertinax]

Pullo and Vorenus are the continuty threads to keep the thing together-Madame Pertinax commented-"hmm a bit Monty Python and the Holy Grail, black knight at the ford ". (its just a flesh wound!).

[Guest Artorius]

who will verenus and pollo side with in the up in coming series leading towards the battle of actium? Mark Antony or Octavian, i think Octavian and that, given that everything seems go so well for the two heroes, they will play some part in Octavians victory

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Hmmm, I'm slightly dubious than I was before.

 

I have already expressed my dissappointment at the lack of epic battles. This is acceptable - budget constraints and what not. What's not so good though, is the historical innaccuracies, and more so, the plot inadequacies.

Even I don't get why they don't bother making battle epics. I mean seriously, technology has advance so much today that costs for making a full battle scene is not that very expensive. For example, if anyone has watched Stargate SG-1, that show has many fictional stuff, its all graphics yet its low budget. Nevertheless, it still looks good.

I suppose the creators of Rome were on a tight schedule or they're real dramatists.

[phil25]

I think the Pullo-in-the-arena "thing" was a direct lift from an actual event when a condemned legionary at first refused to fight and then killed five gladiators single-handed. I'll try to look out the reference.

 

On having Octavian in Rome, I suspect that they are simplifying things - they don't want to have a hiatus bringing him back from Apollonia. But more important, they wanted him involved in a dramatic confrontation at the end of Series 1 (not knowing if there would be a Series 2).

 

Does anyone know what the arena in which Pullo and Vorenus fought was based on? I have never seen an arrangement with those "metae" like objects with spikes surrounding a rectangular (!) space depicted before, and i have made something of a study of the arena. The series design has been, on the whole reasonably well-founded, but was this design made from whole-cloth?

 

Shame we didn't see the Lupercalia, with Antonius and his fellow priests running naked, and then Antonius offering Caesar the crown and its being refused. Thiose could have been good scenes and possessed the sort of attractions - nudity, drama etc - that the writers favoured. Another episode to draw out the politics - and to hint at Caesar's plans to invade Parthia, and perhaps placing Cleopatra and Caesarion in Rome, would have been excellent. I felt Antonius got a bit lost towards the end - but a good final shot of his face as he takes in Caesar's murder. It said a lot.

 

I am not too worried about the absence of battles personally. The emphasis in the series was on character, so I think (for instance) Pompeius' reactions after Pharsalia were more important than seeing the battle. We have had plenty of (bloody) violence.

 

Phil

[Pertinax]

Battles would have been "interesting" in a technical sense ( a sort of very expensive re-enactment), I would have been happier with more politics all through the series, given that telesion audiences are so " dumbed down" I think HBO did a good compromise job all round . I started out saying I was pleased to see Cranham as Pompey and I think now that that was excellent casting.Sometimes the script seemed to falter in believability for each individual actor- as though the dialogue was a definite team effort, but these moments were never enogh to spoil the overall enjoyment for me. I aslso felt constant engagement with and sympathy for Vorenus and Pulo, often "nice guy" leads like Vorenus are dull and just there to build others around, not so here because of his rather stoical and plutonian personality.

[Valerius]

I saw the feature length episode that marks the end of the present series last night. Oh Dear! So Caesar was assassinated because of the machinations of Servilia, with Brutus, Cassius, Casa etc all sitting down hanging on her every word. Given the patriarchal nature of Roman society which excluded women from the political process that seems a bit unlikely. Octavius was not in Rome when Caesar was assassinated but in Illyria. Caesar was not assassinated in the Curia Hostilia as the programme potrays but in the theatre of Pompey which was being used for Senate meetings while the Curia Hostilia was being refurbished.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Didn't the liberators meet at Servilia's house afterwards? I think I read that in a primary source somewhere or another. Anybody else have a similar recollection?

 

PS This thread needs to be moved from the Army forum.

Edited January 7, 2006 by M. Porcius Cato

[P.Clodius]

They did indeed meet at Servillia's place. Don't worry about picking Rome apart man, it was by far the best drama EVER shown on TV about ancient Rome since I.Claudius. Just hope there's a season 2!

Edited January 7, 2006 by P.Clodius

[phil25]

They did indeed meet at Servillia's place. Don't worry about picking Rome apart man, it was by far the best drama EVER shown on TV about ancient Rome since I.Claudius. Just hope there's a season 2!

 

As I recall it is in one of Cicero's letters. he describes the whole meeting and is clearly very much in awe of Servilia.

 

In dramatic terms, I liked Servilia being the driving force - it had been set up long before in the series when she inscribed the curse on Caesar after his rejection.

 

It was just a shame the whole thing was a bit rushed. Among things that might have added to the drama were:

 

* the presence of Cleopatra and Caesarion in Rome, which would have added a level to Servilia's jealousy and antipathy to Caesar;

 

*an attempt to seduce Antony into the conspiracy (which may have been the historical fact) with further debate on whether the Liberators should strike only at Caesar or undertake a more wide-ranging coup;

 

* the Lupercalia and Antonius' offer of the crown/diadem to Caesar and his rejection - dramatuically this could have been made a two way test. (Antony could have used it to decide whether to join the conspiracy - should Caesar accept); also caesar could have been shown to be tempted, but to refuse given the crowd's attitude.

 

A slightly slower pace in the final episodes could really ahve given this series an electric charge.

 

Phil

[Pertinax]

Those are all good points-id have been happy if the series had been twice as long to get the plot development. I hope that when the dvd is eventually released we will get a lot of additional materiel at that time, if we are fortunate to get more series in the future this has been a very promising start. The theme of human jealousy destroying the ambitious didnt rankle with me at all, after all petty hatredsand grudges abound in small offices and shops.

Edited January 8, 2006 by Pertinax

[phil25]

I couldn't agree more, Pertinax.

 

I think few coups or "official" assassinations (I exclude the lone assassin) are planned or carried out purely on "political" grounds, there is always a personal reason. Even with lone assassins there is often a perceived "grudge".

 

The Army officers who plotted against Hitler weren't doing so on moral or constitutional grounds - they thought him unworthy of the position he had attained. They would have been quite happy to see him replaced with Goering - more, one of their kind!!

 

Does anyone know whether a date has been fixed for "Rome" to come out on dvd - either in the US or UK? Do we have to wait until re-runs on cable etc have completed, or will it be imminent, to latch on to the success of the series. I assume if there are to be lots of "extras" - deleted scenes, behind the scenes stuff, commentaries etc, that might add to the timescale. Anyone heard anything?

 

Phil