Unified Illyria Or Thrace?

[Fafnir]

I always understood Illyria and Thrace as regions where "barbarian" tribes (with some Greek influence) roamed, never being unified. Though i spoke to someone and he suggested that at one point Thrace was unified under some tribal king, though the unity didn't last.

 

Also, another person told me that Illyria was unified at one point as well. Im just looking for information, because i dont really believe that these places were unified before Rome came in and... took charge.

 

- The Faffy One

[Valens]

I always understood Illyria and Thrace as regions where "barbarian" tribes (with some Greek influence) roamed, never being unified. Though i spoke to someone and he suggested that at one point Thrace was unified under some tribal king, though the unity didn't last.

Thrace came close, but was never completely unified. The most powerful Thracian tribe, the Odrysai, were the ones to briefly unite most of Thrace, under their second king, Sitalkes the Great. However, when he died fairly late in the 5th Century BC, the kingdom was promptly divided amongst his family.

 

The savage, northern Thracian tribes were generally what stood in the way of a unified Thrace, in fact, Sitalkes was leading a campaign against the notorious Triballi tribe when he died.

[Segestan]

Ancient Thrace was located in the East Half of the Balkan Peninsula which presently is part of NE Greece , S Bulgaria and European Turkey. Thrace lay E of Macedonia between the Danube and Strymon Rivers. The Ancient boundries were not always constant. There is evidence that before 1300 BC the Thracian Tribes retreated from the Asiatic to the Axius.

In 480 BC , the Macedonians forcibly annexed all Thracian territory W of the Strymon River. The thracian S territories were lost to Philip II of Macedon in 342 BC.

After considerable struggle with Rome in AD 46 ; Thrace became a Roman Province.

Thracian social structure consisted of a Confederacy of Patriarchal Tribes, each with a feudal aristocracy and a serflike peasantry. Thracian religion was was organized around Dionysos , the vegetation God who was worshipped ritually. Though the the thracians developed culturally somewhat, especially in their poetry and music , their barbarism was infamous in the world of civilized Hellenism. The Thracian developed this reputation based upon the practice of human sacrifice, the wearing of unseemly tattoos , the abuse of alcohal , and a most inhumane treatment of fellow human beings. beyond this savagery , the Thracians were known as fierce warriorsand were sought as mercenaries.There is no record of Christianity having reached Thrace in the NT.

 

regards,

[Fafnir]

Thank you Valens and Segestan for your informative posts ^^

 

I guess i can safely say that the area known as Thrace was never fully unified under its own king. Though it is expected that a strong tribe such as the Odrysai would attempt to unify the region, just a region full of strong warriors who used to live in tribal conditions could never unify longer than one generation, without outside intervention. (Macedon and later Rome)

 

Does anyone know about the region of Illyria, Northwest of Macedon i believe? And information would be great.

 

Tyvm,

 

The Fafinator

[Primus Pilus]

Illyria is the subject of furious debate because of nationalist and ethnic rivalries among modern occupants of the balkan region. There were certainly periods where Illyria seems to have been mostly unified under a central monarchy (such as King Agron and Queen Teuta around the time of the Second Punic War.) There is no question that at this time they had gathered a sizeable fleet and had developed into a regional minor power rivalring Macedon.

[Segestan]

Illyrians were primarily peoples of Indo-European stock who collectively the tribes of the 'Dalmatae and the Albani'. These two tribes settled in the area know known as S Yugoslavia and Albania. Some of these people spilled over into areas South. They came into contact with the Hellenic cities and culture; eventually establishing the Kingdom of Epirus., which lies today in NW Greece.

 

regards,

[diegis]

The Thracian is the forgotten nation of antiquity.They was named "barbarians" by greek and romans,but this name was given to all the peoples who was not greek and romans.Of course,many people who knows about Roman empire history hear bout Spartacus,or about Traian wars with Dacians,but is a little nomber who knows much things about Thracians.Even if Herodot,the"father of history",say that Thracians was the most nomerous nation on Earth,after indians,and,if will be united,will cannot be deafeted by anybody,today,just two nation have their roots on Thracian,Romania(north thracians-Geto-dacians)and Albania(Illyrians-south thracians).The first king who succesed to unified a thracian tribe,the Odrisi,was Teres.His succesor was his son,king Sitalkes,and the last one was his Sitalkes nephew,Seuthes the First.After his death,the Odrisi kingdom was split betwen his fallowers.The only powerfull kingdom of Thracians was Geto-Dacia,first totally unified under king Burebista,the first and the bigger of all kings of Thracians,was named.Thracians was probably one of the first nation of Europe,and they influenced many other peoples,even if this is a little know thing(the famous celts druids priests is supose to be influenced by dacians priests,and Flavius Josephus,an antiq roman historian with jews origins say that esenian comunity,the one with "Death Sea"manuscripts, is alike dacians priests <ktistai>-<travellers in clouds>.Some historians say that in 2 millenium BC,we can speake about a Thracian culture.Their gods influenced the greek and roman gods in short time(dont forget that greek migrated from Danube region,and even about romans is theories that they migrated from central Europe,area of Thracians tribes).Thracians(and especially north thracians-hiperboreans)is supose to have as direct ancestors the peoples of <Pelasgians>,the first european developed civilization.The Sabazios thracian god was take it by greeks as Dyonisos,and by romans as Bachus.The Bendis godess(very popular for thracians womens)was take it by greeks as Artemis,and by romans as Diana godess.Everybody who know about antiquity know about Orfeu,who was Thracian,and even Ares,to greeks,Mars from romans,is supose to be take it from thracians(Mars Gradivus),or Apollo(Apollo the Hiperborean,in thracians culture).Unfortunately,the thracian culture was an oral one,not a write one,sow many things about them is know from antiq greek or roman writers,or from archeological discoveries.They was organized in tribal unions,and just the Odrisi kingdoom,the Frigians and the Dacian kingdoom is very know in history(they exist a Ciconi kingdoom,for example,know from Iliada,from Homer).The main organization was military democracy(and this was a problem for realization of a consolidated centralized kingdoom),all the man able to fight was consulted in important problems of union.In Dacia,for example,was a military cult,a secret warriors brotherhood,the Confreria(Brotherhood) of the Young Wolves,who was spread in population mass,but control the main decisions.Antiq writers say about this peoples that have the power to transform himself in wolves,but probably is the ritual of young warriors who dress in wolf and,into a symbolic way,take the power,strenght,resistance and ferocity of this animal.The fight flag simbolise a wolf head,with mouth open,and a cloth snake body,who make a strange sound in the wind.This symbol was take it even by roman cavalry,after Traian wars(and named <draco>),and than use by auxiliar dacian troops from roman army.Even the name of Dacian,gived by romans,come from frigian word <daoi>,who means <wolf>.Most probably this warriors influence the germans <bersekir>warriors,especially after king Burebista campaign in german teritories.The cult of wolf was so strong that the legends sed about Saint Andrew,the first apostol of God Jesus Christ,who come on our area to spread christianism that was leaded by a wolf,who show him the roads,and even today,in our folclor,the night before Saint Andrew celebration day(a national religious celebration)is the night of wolves(who can speak with human voices in this night)and of <strigoi>(peoples who die,or after will die,for some reasons,dont go to the other world,but remain,or come back to this world).This <strigoi>was the inspiration of later <vampires>peoples,in other cultures.Beginning probably with 7 century BC,(but posible before),a new,original religious believe influence the thracians,and especially the Geto-Dacians world.A new god ,Zamolxe,apear.Herodot say about him that some greeks believe that was a slave of Pitagora,but Herodot himself believe that Zamolxe(or Zalmoxis in other variant)live long before Pitagora.This new god replaced probably the older suprem god,Gebeleizis(probably was a priest of this,or change the name with this).And even the others gods was still worshiped,this new god become such important,with chtonian and uranian atributes,that was almost the only god worshiped.Zamolxis teach the people they are imortal,and they not die,but just change their home,and go to another world,where god himself rules,and everybody is happy,especially warriors who die in battle.This is one of the reasons for thracians to be such a brave and fierce warriors.One of thracians-getae tribes of south Danube(Thracia),Crobizi,cry when a child was born,and sorry for them because come in this bad world,and make a party when a people die,and was happy for them,because go into another world,of eternal happy.The Dacians was the only people who make voluntarily human sacrifices.After challenges,the most brave and strongest young warrior was choose the give to Zamolxis the message of peoples.This was the greatest honour for a warrior,and he was very proud to be choose.This warrior was thrown in 3 javelins,and after he die,he meet the god and tell him about the peoples problems.Thracians dont use slavery,like greek and romans,and even the powerfull of their kingdooms,Dacia use slave in service of state,as qualified workers,or slaves of some nobles,who was treated as inferiour members of family.They was very corect peoples,when someone go out from home,left a stick to the gates of house,to visitors know that is not home,and come after,and no one of his village stole from him.Unfortunately for thracians,the fact that they was not united put him in bad situation,first in front of macedonians,(this was though defeateted by north thracians)and than in front of romans.And,in the end,as usual,sorry for my english.

[Segestan]

Great post Diegis. Thrace , as a nation of peoples; has seen many wars and conquering armies. It is little wonder , then that Thrace could Not organize itself as a Statehood, being the 'Cross' between West and the East. Between the Light of the Sun and Darkness of the Moon.

 

regards,

[Ancestor]

Who were the Illyrians?

 

http://www.geocities.com/protoillyrian/

[Pertinax]

excellent post Diegis-who was it who said if the Thracians had not been so fierce and keen to fight each other they would have defeated any nation?

 

and there are some echoes in that post of the Albigensian Heresy- a child being unhappy to enter the world of the flesh because it is the work of the Devil and celebrations on Death as a passing away from a corrupt fleshly state to one of purity.The Cathars sometimes starved themselves to death its is said to achieve the bliss of death.

I also understand that Thracian mercenaries were highly valued especially for tasks that their employers had no moral strength or stomach to undertake themselves?

The sacrifice of the Young Warrior also echoes tellingly of Native S American warriror cults.

Very interesting.

[Ancestor]

Thanks Diegis.

 

"Strigoi" in my language (albanian) does it mean - "shtriga".

 

In english is - witch!

 

So I think that a lot of old words are preserved miraculously in albanian language.

 

 

The Shtriga, in Albanian folklore, was a witch that would suck the blood out of infants at night while they slept, and would then turn into a flying insect.

 

Also in Romanian mythology, "strigoi" (same form singular or plural) are the evil souls of the dead rising from the tombs during the night to haunt the neighbourhood. A "strigoaicǎ" (singular feminine form) is a witch.

 

These names are derived from "strigǎ", which in Romanian meant "witch" or "barn owl", cognate with Italian "strega", which means "witch", and descended from the Latin word "strix", for a shrieking vampiric bird. "Strigoi viu" (plural: Strigoi vii) is a live vampire witch. "Strigoi mort" (plural: Strigoi morţi) is a dead (undead) vampire.

[Ursus]

So I assume this is the root of the word "stregheria," the word for supposedly Medieval Italian witchcraft?

[diegis]

For Pertinax, i believe the historian who say about Thracians that words is greek historian Herodot, the "father of history".And about thracian warriors, yes, they were highly valued for their fight calities, because they religious believes (originated from Zamolxis god) theach him that the most brave warrior live the best life in to <the other world>, so everyone try the be the best in battle(this means not a foolish bravery, but an inteligent fight too,to defeat the enemy, and be prepare to a bravery death in all the moments).For Ancestor, the romanian and albanian languages, because have almost the same roots(romanian-north thracian,daco-getian, albanian-south thracian,illyrian), they have many close words.The "strigoi",in his primary sense, means the people who ,from some specifical reasons, dont go to ,<other world> when die,or come back in this world when die.In many times, they suck the blood of other peoples,or even killing them.The female<strigoi>,or <strigoaica>, is in many times related to witchcraft too.This believes originated in antiq times,and is it not know if romans has some close believes,or take this believes from thracians(including the name),and then spread in all empire,but, in medieval and than modern time, this mit, transformed in vampires mit, was spread in all western world(even if other antiq cultures have mits close to this), and become a modern mit.But, like one of ours great poets, Eminescu, say, "in this world,all is new and all is old".