Constantiople/byzantium

[Guest Scanderbeg]

The Ottoman Empire in 1453 could hardly be considered "barbarians", they were the top in technology, they were extremely rich, they all had a great deal of knowledge on western hellenistic culture through both Byzantines and Arabs and even took part in it, their lands were extremely luxurius etc etc. not to mention they were by far the most advanced warfare wise and damn good at it. They were a very very cultured people.

 

Anyway yes, Europe does owe much to post-Byzantine scholars who flooded Italy after Constantinople fell, however we must not forget that the Renaissance was well underway during that era. And we certainly should not forget Arab translations, whcih gave rebirth to the works of Plato, Socrates etc. etc. from Spain.

 

How much support does this idea have amongst modern Greeks? I think that any Romanist would love to see such a thing occur, a final vindication for the Romans.

 

 

its very very supressed today and exists as a dream mainly among the biggest nationalists. People realize its futility. However its no like Greece didnt try to fulfill it. They made a mass invasion in western Anatolia and did hell of a lot of damamge before getting beaten by Ataturk, they had a large army ready for Constantinople but the go ahead never came from Britain and even fought to retake such small areas as "Northern Epirus" which today lies in southern Albania.

 

These "Neo-Byzantines", as they are called, still wonder around the web and finding their sites isnt all too hard.

Here you go.

[Tobias]

I apologise for calling the Ottomans "barbarians", i was not thinking when i wrote that.

On the subject of a reborn Roman nation in Greece, i believe it would probably never be real without Istanbul (Constantinople), and i'm sure Turkey won't be giving it up anytime soon. It'd be really nice to see a nation in the modern world that called itself a Roman successor nation, however.

Could someone help me with something? Did the Byzantines have any cannon themselves when they were defending against the Ottomans?

[Guest Scanderbeg]

I dont believe any fire came out of the walls of Constantinople. Most of the ammunition was brand new. Turks had hired a Hungarian for the technology, forgot his name. We have to remember, it wasnt the cannons that actually led to the falls. At the time, they were very slow and the Byzantines literally repaired the walls as easily as they were blown out. Infact, one could say the city might have held if it wasnt for the tricky Venetians and Genoese. it was even recorded that Venetians in the city were trading with the Turks outside.

 

Its not as much about being Roman to greeks, but about restoring their believed Holy city and Agia Sophia as the center of Orthodoxy.

[Lex]

They made a mass invasion in western Anatolia and did hell of a lot of damamge before getting beaten by Ataturk, they had a large army ready for Constantinople but the go ahead never came from Britain and even fought to retake such small areas as "Northern Epirus" which today lies in southern Albania.

 

 

Interesting. I never knew that he modern Greeks were so determined to regain their old territory. And thanks for the link, even though the idea isn't too realistic these days but it is still interesting to read about.

 

But here's a scenario; what if Greece convinced the EU to only allow Turkey to join the EU if they surrendered their European territories to Greece? It's not too realistic, but how desperate is Turkey to join the EU? Their economy isn't too great and their prospects of joining the EU is currently not good due to opposition from the majority of Europeans and the Pope. So maybe they might accept such an offer?

[Guest Scanderbeg]

Today the idea is really only harbored by extremists. Most have given up the idea of restoring Constantinople as they see it as hopeless, Istanbul is not only the heart of Turkey, but is its most populated city(at 11 million), makes it tons of money through oil pipelines and its harbor etc. etc. Turkey is not even desparate enough to admit the Armenian genocide so this would probably completely infuriate them.

 

 

 

Wikipedia gives a good explanation of the idea.

[Onasander]

Ever thought about the origins of the name Romania?

 

Anyway, it wasn't till recently that Constantinople changed it's name to Instanbul, meaning 'In the City', for the Turkish Occupation of the city, it kept it's Roman name.

 

The greeks took it once during the 20th century, and then quickly lost it. Every since the massacre of Smyrna to the beginning of world war 2 that was placed as a high priority, since the threat of extremination of further Greek and Armenian peoples radicalized the population in it's leanings towards war. When world war two came around, Turkey stayed Neurtal, and Greece was twiced attacked by Italy, who was repulsed, and then Germany.... in which they didn't do so well against.

 

Afterwards, the British set about rebuilding Greece, but their economy soon began to flounder, and the US came in, just in time of the Greek Civil War, where communist would come down out out of Albania and Hungary to the north and run amuck. This went on for a couple of years till we trained thier Special Forces, and then a while longer to we started throwing fits cause they were misusing thier SF for doing simple details like moving supplies and building stuff, instead of the regular infantry doing it for them.

 

Upon the formation of NATO, which both Greece and Turkey joined, they focused their attention to the north. Upon the collapse of the Soviet Union, and lack of clear mission for NATO, nationalism again began to rise. But then, the earthquakes began to strike, Greece and Turkey was hit, and managed to break the ice alittle when they sent relief forces to each others countries.

 

However, I keep hearing stories about the Statue of St. Michael, so I doubt very much the greeks have given in; I think they're just going with this new found friendship with Turkey in hopes of maintaining peace as well as improving the standings of the greek population in Turkey for a more Egalitarian standing.

[Lex]

Thanks for the info everyone, I'm finding this topic quite interesting and it's definately given me a different perception of the Greeks and their modern history.

 

I was wondering if anyone knows roughly how many ethnic Greeks there are in the European part of Turkey and how many there are in the whole of Turkey?

[Onasander]

I'll check it out, but know that adherance to the greek ideal is going to be larger since their are still many crypto-christians around.

[Guest Scanderbeg]

Ever thought about the origins of the name Romania?

 

 

Interestingly enough, there are people who claim ancestry from the Romans. The vlachs. Many of them trully believe they are decendants of Roman legionaries stationed in the Balkans. However further studies to their customs and traditions negates this. Most are mountain folk with their traditions based mostly around mountains. Roman legionaries, after getting out the army, were more mainland people who took up jobs like carpenters etc., its more likely vlachs of today are Romanized populants in the Balkans. Romania is a rather loose term. In reality Romania is a large Balkan state made up of a concentration of all Romanized populants of the Balkans. From Illyrians to Thracians, Dacians end even Romanized Greeks and Slavs. I myself am half-Vlach in origin, from my fathers side. I have went to vlach villages in Albania, most notable is the once thriving city of Moscopole, which was once the second biggest city in the Balkans after Constantinople, when Athens was just a small village , it would later be sieged and looted once by the Ottomans, then completely burned down by an Albanian Pasha who sieged the city and captured it. Anyway, to listen to them is to listen to the closest possible language out to old latin. Unfortunately, its dying due to the fact that most have been assimilated into the countries they belong to and they dont have a proper alphabet . There are also the Istriots, who speak an old form of Dalmatian latin. Them to I believe are being assimilated fast in Croatia.

[Onasander]

Culture and tradition isn't of grave importance; for example, during the PRC's population swaps in Outer Mongolia, they started implanting ethnic Han onto the plains, in the expectation that they would 'modernise' the mongols.... intead, just the opposite happened, they soon assimilated to the mongol way of life due to the requirements of living in the plains; meanwhile, the mongols they settled in the surburbs, though could function moderately well, retained many of their old ways!

 

Certain enviroments dictate man's lifestyle, in others, man is the dictator. The romans may of had no choice but to adapt.

[Hamilcar Barca]

I belive the Hungarian cannon maker was named Master Urban... sounds like a rap group.

[Tobias]

And he certainly "got down" to his work, the holes are still to be seen to this day:)