Taelactin Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 OK... I'm writing a story, and I need some help trying to make it as non-fictional as possible... I just was wondering whether or not the legions Crassus took to Carrhae before they were massacred by the Parthians had any names... roman numerals... anything... I read some place that some commanders would supply everything to their own legions themselves, therefore the legions were basically theirs and not the senates... so the legions were more loyal to them... etc. I'm guessing this was the case with Crassus since he was the richest hombre in Rome at the time... If there are no specific names to the legions that went into Carrhae (there were seven... right?) What would be some good names to make up for them? I have no idea how the Romans would label their legions back then... maybe based on place or something... I don't know... One last question... after 100 BCE... were ALL the legions using the cohort system...? Or were some still using maniples? Thanks for the help! -Taelactin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 To my knowledge there are no surviving records of names for Crassus' legions. Some came from Gaul with Publius Crassus (Crassus' son and a Caesarian general) but I can't even recall any ancient sources mentioning where Crassus even recruited the others. (His campaign was a painful embarrassment to Rome and was not overly detailed in the ancient accounts). One Augustan coin from 20 BC, showing the return of the standards shows an X on the standard that is returned. Perhaps one legion was Legio X, perhaps not. Regardless, at this point, all 7 legions would have been numbered and not given extra names of distinction. For the most part, the imperators attempted to not repeat legionary numbers, but Consular forces were always numbered in order of recruitment, beginning with Legio I. Crassus could have taken Legio I - VII (Syria was a pro consular command). For comparison purposes... Caesar's Legions at Livius.org Unfortunately, I can't recall ever seeing a complete listing of Pompey's existing legions, or any other Senatorial forces at the time. One last question... after 100 BCE... were ALL the legions using the cohort system...? Or were some still using maniples? This was a transitional period in which either system could still exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taelactin Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Man, I seriously wasted too much time searching the internet trying to figure this stuff out when I should have just came here first... thanks a lot for the help! -Taelactin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onasander Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 I've wondered that as well, after the marian reform, how long did it take for the various legions to change? I suppose once new commanders came in, they would for the most part take the new recruitment methods in, but I don't know how conservative they were. Sounds like a mission here for us all! We need a list of all roman legions and where they were stationed. After that, figure out to the best that the historical record allows us which political party the commanders belonged to (the name should be a hint). Okay, I think it would be safe to assume legion created after the reforms would use the new methods, so it becomes a process of narrowing down the old ones, then from that point, looking for clues from that point on among the survivors who used what. Until we can prove otherwise, I think we should assume they continued using the old system within the old legions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gajus of Sweden Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Hmmm I'm interested in this to. Spontaneously it feels like (or maybe i want it to be just so) also the legions shortly after Marius reform would have names to go with their numbers. Since loyalty and commradery was so important in the legion I think it would have been a good move to name the legions to strengthen that bond between the legionaires. On this subject I come to think of the book "Gates of Rome" (I think it would be, translated to english) of Conn Iggulden. I know that Igguldens books about Caesar is far from historically correct but in the book "Gates of Rome" he names one of Mariuses legions as The Primagena (The First Bornes) and goes in to detail and names a centuria within The Primagena as the Bronze Fist. Is this just straight out of Igguldens lively imagination or has anyone of you heard this names before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crassvs Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 I have read Iggulden's books and enjoy them simply because they are a good read but i wouldnt be surprised if he made up the names. Heck he had Cato kill himself in 72 BC and he didn't do that for almost another 30 years and in different circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gallerydavid Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Chris, I have a question on this subject. What is the modern location of the Battle of Carrhae? Thanks, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 The closest town would probably be Haran, Turkey. Carrhae would be very close to the modern border between Turkey and Syria. By that token, the next closest major city would probably have been Edessa (or modern Urfa) to the north. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caius Maxentius Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Taelactin, If you're writing a story about this, check this out: <http://www.meta-religion.com/Archaeology/Asia/romans_in_china.htm> There's a hypothesis that some of the surviving legionnaries of the battle of Carrhae ended up serving in the Persion army, and eventually ended up in battle in China! (I don't know if this has been discussed before, I'm kind of new here...) This group of soldiers was described in Chinese records as fighting in what looks like a Roman "testudo" formation. At any rate, there's a study looking at whether or not China's town Lichien was actually originally settled by these displaced Roman soldiers. It's a fascinating historical episode to imagine. http://www.meta-religion.com/Archaeology/A...ns_in_china.htm Sorry, here is the proper hypertext for the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neos Dionysos Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 The closest town would probably be Haran, Turkey. Carrhae would be very close to the modern border between Turkey and Syria. By that token, the next closest major city would probably have been Edessa (or modern Urfa) to the north. I thought Harran was the closest city to the site? Taelactin, If you're writing a story about this, check this out: <http://www.meta-religion.com/Archaeology/Asia/romans_in_china.htm> There's a hypothesis that some of the surviving legionnaries of the battle of Carrhae ended up serving in the Persion army, and eventually ended up in battle in China! (I don't know if this has been discussed before, I'm kind of new here...) This group of soldiers was described in Chinese records as fighting in what looks like a Roman "testudo" formation. At any rate, there's a study looking at whether or not China's town Lichien was actually originally settled by these displaced Roman soldiers. It's a fascinating historical episode to imagine. http://www.meta-religion.com/Archaeology/A...ns_in_china.htm Sorry, here is the proper hypertext for the link. We have around 3 topics I think on this subject... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 The closest town would probably be Haran, Turkey. Carrhae would be very close to the modern border between Turkey and Syria. By that token, the next closest major city would probably have been Edessa (or modern Urfa) to the north. I thought Harran was the closest city to the site? Indeed, read my reply again. Haran is closest followed probably by Edessa (Urfa). We have around 3 topics I think on this subject... As recently merged by Ursus... The Lost Legion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neos Dionysos Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 The closest town would probably be Haran, Turkey. Carrhae would be very close to the modern border between Turkey and Syria. By that token, the next closest major city would probably have been Edessa (or modern Urfa) to the north. I thought Harran was the closest city to the site? Indeed, read my reply again. Haran is closest followed probably by Edessa (Urfa). Wow... shows how blind I am... sorry. When you spoke of seeing on a coin the eagle that was returned as the 10th's... did this not conflict with the other 10th legion that we know of as being the infamous one with Caesar, (I know they were not the same), or also coming into conflict with the idea of the consular legion numbers I - VII? Another one too... was the eagle the one that was recovered, or was it being held by those who recovered it? I would think they would not want to publicize which were lost, but honor and show whom returned them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germanicus Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 he names one of Mariuses legions as The Primagena (The First Bornes) and goes in to detail and names a centuria within The Primagena as the Bronze Fist. Is this just straight out of Igguldens lively imagination or has anyone of you heard this names before? Pure invention. There was a Primagenia legion - raised by Gaius (Caligula). There's a lot of invention in Iggulden's books. Strange when there's so much more interesting, factual information on the period he chose to write about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neos Dionysos Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 he names one of Mariuses legions as The Primagena (The First Bornes) and goes in to detail and names a centuria within The Primagena as the Bronze Fist. Is this just straight out of Igguldens lively imagination or has anyone of you heard this names before? Pure invention. There was a Primagenia legion - raised by Gaius (Caligula). There's a lot of invention in Iggulden's books. Strange when there's so much more interesting, factual information on the period he chose to write about. Yes, the 15th, but it did not mean 'First Bornes", it was named that after the goddess Fortuna since that was one of her names... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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