UNRV Brexit poll

[Viggen]

...well, it seems, soon we will find out who was right about what will happens, once Britian leaves....

[guy]

Woow.

 

So much for the punditocracy and their forecasts of an easy "remain" victory.

 

Let's hope for the best, and if necessary, make appropriate offerings to Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva.

 

 

guy also known as gaius 

[sonic]

Well, seems like the country followed the results of the UNRV poll.  Now to find out the truth of all those Brexit claims.  Somehow, I feel like it's going to be a bad few years for Britain.

[caldrail]

The issues are actually quite simple. On the one hand, membership of the EU has allowed us access to the common market and enterprise grants of money. On the other, it demands we accept ever more immigration, continual taxation to support weaker European economies, ever more legal oversight from Brussels, and eventual absorption by the EU superstate. Under EU plans, Britain will at some point cease to be a nation state, becoming part of the Atlantic province along with coastal France.

 

Scotland has already had a referendum on affiliation within the United Kingdom. It is quite stubborn and rather crass to then demand another simply because the UK wants to opt out of Europe, even though the process won't happen tomorrow. They made their choice. All fair and legal. Nothing was hidden from them. If the Scots can vote in a referendum and choose to remain, they have to accept that as part of the UK they also voted to be part of the EU, and even if much of Scotland wanted to remain - tough. The referendum was for al the UK, not just England.

 

This morning at work the talk was all about the voting progress. No-one wanted to remain - we cheered as the votes began to roll in, though I have to say none of the Poles were present at that time. One colleague wanted rid of Cameron (I'm no fan of him myself) and it seems his wish has been granted albeit not until October. I must be honest - the result pleased me, but celebrations will have to wait because unfortunately withdrawal is not immediate nor a simple process. As much as I anticipate difficulties, the fact is Britain was already in a difficult economic situation and has suffered reversals along with everyone else. I'm shocked at the lack of strong will in the reactions of some politicians, especially those of the 'Remain' camp, who are now having to accept the result the British public have meted out.

 

Of course Russia Today has managed to find some disgruntled political commentator from Scotland who has a negative, if somewhat odd, view of what is happening. His assertion that Britain is succumbing to right wing tendencies is hard to understand since most of us live and work in moderate and tolerant manner, but the truth is the increasing numbers of foreign nationals is making the job market extremely hard, especially for the low paid. Austerity in Britain has made the situation tougher - I've felt the effects quite badly in the last couple of years. The pro-European policies of Cameron, and to be fair, a great number of mainstream politicians of all persuasions, have become somewhat distant from popular sympathy. The last election had an apathetic turnout. Note how the issue of British 'independence' from Europe has raised the level of public involvement considerably.

[Aurelia]

This is a very sad day for Europe. I must admit I'm still quite shocked by the results - I knew it would be tight but never expected "leave" to win. 

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, Caldrail, but I've just watched Nicola Sturgeon from Scotland say in a press conference that it is highly likely that they will now call for a second referendum as they are still very keen to keep their ties with the EU. As I understand it, many Scots who voted to remain within the UK in 2014 did so because they did not want to leave the EU. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think even David Cameron said at the time that if the UK voted to leave the EU, this would justify another Scottish referendum.

 

As for the assertion that all European nations would eventually be absorbed into a EU super state, please, we all know that will never happen. There is just too much resistance within EU countries (not just the UK) and the rise of right-wing movements across the continent bears testament to that. I think the referendum results reflect a deep dissatisfaction with the UK government itself much more than with the EU. The economic downturn in the UK, as well as the NHS and housing crises are more a result of the appalling policies introduced by successive ineffective governments (Labour and Tory) than any European directive.

 

Anyway, let's hope the future is not quite as bleak as "experts" would have us believe (for the UK and for the EU)!

[caldrail]

Sturgeon has an agenda and as much as she's a pushy lady at the best of times, there is no case for demanding referendums simply because she signed up to a deal that jumped ship. The facts are simple. Scotland voted to remain in the UK and the UK have voted to opt out of Europe. That much of Scotland wanted to remain in the EU is neither here nor there. The EU Referendum wasn't about British nations voting, it was a UK vote. She is obliged to observe the result or else her democratic principles are on very shaky ground. In nay case, it is possible for the UK to permit individual nations to negotiate some kind of associate membership of the EU in the same way that's being suggested for the UK now.

 

The European Union means European Union. It always has. The problem with cooperative political entities like this is that they present vehicles for empire building, and let's be honest, the EU has some very ambitious bureaucrats working toward building a European superpower. The plans for national integration have been published for more than a decade. The whole of the EU, as it was then, had been divided up into provinces that did not rely on national boundaries. The reason that so much emphasis has been placed on educating people on the value of EU membership is that national identities, as we now see clear examples of, are obstructions toward acceptance of the ultimate goal of that Union. Even France, once one of the major players in dominating the EU's future, has now had to deal with many of the same issues that Britain has considered recently, and their economy is not doing well. In other words, the EU works because some member states were financially supporting the weaker ones. Our exit reduces the EU economy by 17%. That's quite a proportion, and note how keen the EU is to get rid of Britain now we don't want to play ball.

 

My bubble is declared reinflated

[Aurelia]

The EU Referendum wasn't about British nations voting, it was a UK vote.

 

It might not initially have been about British nations voting individually but it is turning into quite an issue now. Most of all, it has served to expose the deep fractures within the UK and it's likely to get worse as the full implications of leaving the EU become more clear. Northern Ireland doesn't seem too pleased with the idea of leaving the EU either and who knows what this will do to relations between NI and the Republic of Ireland if/when a new border goes up between the two. 

 

The European Union means European Union.

 

A union of sovereign states does not mean it is a super state in which they have no say. Yes, the EU is a politico-economic union defined by a single market, free circulation of goods, services and people, and a series of common policies that promote close cooperation. Yes, there are rules whereby EU members must abide, but close cooperation among such a large number of member states would be almost impossible without them. Besides, the UK has always been very successful at cherry picking the rules it wanted to apply to them (no Schengen, no Euro, no JHA or at least most of it...) and still managed to moan about it in the process. It's all very nice to want to benefit from the best aspects of close cooperation without having to chip in as well but unfortunately it's just not realistic. And it's very ironic that the "leave" campaigners have thrived on telling supporters that the UK would be better off as a member of the EEA such as Norway, or with a special bilateral agreement such as the one with Switzerland when we all know very well (actually, apparently many people don't know that!) that in order to be able to access the EU single market, a country has to abide by EU rules (including all those nice little EU directives that the British love to hate) as well as to allow for free movement of people (oops!). Not to mention that Switzerland and Norway also need to pay into the European Structural Fund. One thing is for sure, it will be interesting to see what sort of arrangement (if any) the UK will manage to reach with the EU if it continues to insist it does not want to follow certain rules. 

 

Even France, once one of the major players in dominating the EU's future, has now had to deal with many of the same issues that Britain has considered recently, and their economy is not doing well.

 

France's economic problems have little to do with the EU just as those of the UK (please refer to my previous post). France benefits enormously from the Common Agricultural Policy. Also it is a very conservative country when it comes to its labour market. For instance, their 35-hour work week and extreme protection of employees sounds very nice in theory but it also represents a huge obstacle in the creation of new jobs. The UK, on the other hand, has gone in the complete opposite direction with the implementation of those appalling zero-hour contracts which, to be quite frank, are a disgrace.

 

the EU works because some member states were financially supporting the weaker ones

 

Yes, that's true but wouldn't you say that weaker European countries joining the EU also contributes to more stability in the continent? You could compare it to the welfare state where we all contribute towards supporting the weaker and most vulnerable as a way of promoting the greater good. I know our libertarian American friends will disagree with me here but I won't go into that now (perhaps that would be a discussion for another topic   ).

 

By the way, good luck getting back those £350 million a week (which is not even an accurate figure) from your own government. Judging by the Tory government policies so far, they are likely to cut even more funds in the future. Here's a little reality check to end this post.

 

 

 

How's life in the bubble? 

[caldrail]

There are basically two issues about Brexit I don't like. Firstly that Sturgeon and other Scottish politicians are behaving as if Scotland is already an independent country - it isn't. They voted to remain in the United Kingdom, and for that matter, what is democratic about saying "We don't like the vote result so we insist on another vote until we get what we want"?

 

The second is the dangerously apathetic reaction of many British politicians. "Oh no... Crisis..." they tell news reporters and seem utterly unable to make decisions or take positive action, preferring to take advantage of perceived weakness to start stabbing each other. Luckily over the last few days sterner heads have calmed things down and leadership is starting to rise to the fore.  Why the situation has to be a crisis I don't know. They all knew what the vote was about and what the potential results might be. So it seems so many of them were just sitting there expecting to be told what to do.

[sonic]

I find it odd that Boris isn't standing to lead the Conservatives.  I get the feeling that he's realized that the Brexit group can't fulfil their promises concerning trade and immigration and is determined not to lead the country when the s*@t hits the fan.  After all, the many voters who went with leaving did so because they 'wanted to take the country back'.  To be told by the EU that any trade agreements will involve 'freedom of movement' negates that policy, so the 'racist' voters (i.e. those whose only motive for voting was that they wanted foreigners out of England) will mount a backlash against whoever is PM.  Especially if that is someone who led the Brexit campaign.

 

There's already a 'slap Michael Gove' website (http://games.usvsth3m.com/slap-michael-gove/) which currently has a score of 107 million slaps!  If he becomes the Conservative leader and hence PM, it is probable that e will become the most hated PM in the history of the UK, possibly even surpassing Margaret Thatcher.

 

(Please note that these are the views of a political 'outsider'.  I have no strong political affiliations and this post is simply an observation from a position of neutrality.)

[Segestan]

A realistic take on the EU.

 

 

[Viggen]

A realistic take on the EU.

 

 

 

not even close, sorry but there is so much false information and half truth in that video that you cant be serious to take that serious.

In any case Britain is out, good bye and farewell, lets see how the little island is doing globally on its own...

[caldrail]

Ouch! Actually we're not out yet. We're currently paid up members of the Union until agreement is reached with our European partners or the two year period of Article 50 expires. Further, if that article isn't started, in theory we don't leave, though I'm sure there would be some fallout from such a decision on both sides of the Channel, but then, May seems determined to see it through and good for her.

 

As for the truth of the European Union, I doubt many people know what that is. I do note that whilst many opinions are probably inaccurate, my own included, it isn't difficult to fit them to what we observe, which is in itself a failure of the Union to be as open and direct as it needs to be.

[Aurelia]

There's already a 'slap Michael Gove' website (http://games.usvsth3...p-michael-gove/ )which currently has a score of 107 million slaps!  If he becomes the Conservative leader and hence PM, it is probable that e will become the most hated PM in the history of the UK, possibly even surpassing Margaret Thatcher.

 

 

Loved the "slap Michael Gove" website! Good to know he's out although I feel sorry for the Brits now that May has picked Boris Johnson to be Foreign Secretary (what was she thinking??). Is there a "slap Boris Johnson" website out there? 

[Northern Neil]

Many people in the UK who have genuine concerns about a range of issues have been either ignored or told politely to shut up for decades, and have been made out to be racist, uneducated or old fashioned because of their views. So, when a chance came to make a statement on this, a lot of people who don't usually vote came out in droves, and voted to leave. And who can blame them, when prominent populist figures have lied to them in the way I have seen over the past few months. And actually, I do blame them. Anybody is capable of turning off X-factor and Soaps for a couple of hours a week, and becoming properly informed about issues they then plan to vote on. Anybody is capable of switching on BBC Radio 4 occasionally, and perhaps missing the odd episode of 'The Jeremy Kyle Show'.

 

The problem is, many of these issues aren't, or weren't, the fault of the EU. We will continue to import our skilled tradesmen from Europe for as long as average intelligence British youngsters are encouraged to go to university by their parents to get low value degrees, whilst at one time they would have become joiners, electricians or plumbers. We will continue to receive immigrants from the rest of the world for as long as English is a world language which most people have a smattering of, and for as long as unscrupulous employers deliberately make low - income jobs unviable for British applicants.

 

Unfortunately, our farming industry will now take a hit as EU subsidies dry up, cars will cost 20% more to reflect the immediate loss of value of the pound, Scotland may well have another referendum which this time the SNP will win, and 2 million Brits working abroad because their own country cannot or wont employ them are now on dodgy ground. Just the tip of the iceberg.

 

But at least we will retain our sovereignty. And we won the World Cup in 1966.

[sonic]

Many people in the UK who have genuine concerns about a range of issues have been either ignored or told politely to shut up for decades, and have been made out to be racist, uneducated or old fashioned because of their views. So, when a chance came to make a statement on this, a lot of people who don't usually vote came out in droves, and voted to leave.

 

This is the main cause for the vote.  Both the Conservatives and Labour have been led by private-school wallies who have not been interested in what the working man has had to say.  Although in London this issue seems to have been less of a problem, I think that in the North and Wales the fact that the leader of the Labour party has been a "gormless upper-class twit" has been seen as a betrayal.  Voters took the opportunity to express their unhappiness and now we're out of Europe.

 

And who can blame them, when prominent populist figures have lied to them in the way I have seen over the past few months. And actually, I do blame them. Anybody is capable of turning off X-factor and Soaps for a couple of hours a week, and becoming properly informed about issues they then plan to vote on. Anybody is capable of switching on BBC Radio 4 occasionally, and perhaps missing the odd episode of 'The Jeremy Kyle Show'.

 

Many people in the UK who have genuine concerns about a range of issues have been either ignored or told politely to shut up for decades, and have been made out to be racist, uneducated or old fashioned 

This isn't a problem just in the UK.  The far right in Europe is gaining ground due to the exact same problems:  misinformation, old-fashioned prejudice inherited from parents, and misinformation from all sides simply due to the political obsession with 'spin'.  If the centre parties would give up their obsession and speak " the Truth" (whatever that is!) they would gain a lot of votes.

 

Yet whatever else happens, at least our equivalent of Donald Trump isn't in the running to lead the country! 

 

And we won the World Cup in 1966.

 

Don't forget the old football chant:  "Two World Wars and One World Cup, doo dah, doo dah ...."