Consensus on Numerian's cause of death?

[Tom Servo]

Numerian is indeed correctly after his father, but the chronology is off.... Carcalla and Valerian had a few emperors between them, including a Christian one (that christian bias) who is mysteriously not mentioned.

 

His brother did not reign for two years after him.

 

Philip?  Chrysostom claims that he attended services, and that Babylas made him sit with the penitents.  That may have had something to do with Decius' antagonism towards Christianity.  Decius threw Babylas in prison, and he died there in the 250's.

 

Now it comes together.  Carus and his sons wouldn't really be on the radar until they became emperors, and that would be 30 years after Babylas' death.  It looks as if Malalas has Numerian confused with Philip.

[Onasander]

I'm dealing with a tiny fragment of his text, so won't say definitively anything....

 

But it showed multiple sources. It was highly condensed, methodological, unlikely to embellish. So why he would lie in some places and tell truth in others confuses me, especially if he was a monastic as I've read.

 

I believe in methodology in history, but am flexible in terms of methodology, as long as peers can criticize it. My first complaint against myself would be, only reading a little of Malalas. I'd want more access to his work.

 

Right now, we have multiple sources mentioned in the section under discussion, and our data set is unexpectedly large, and yet nebulous. I can't find much research accessible on this very issue.

 

So.... Right now, my recommendation is to build a Matrix, with every source on the left with it's own column horizontal, with 'kinds of facts' stretching left to right on top, going down vertically. Put whatever characteristic in you care for, and when they line up, check the box.

 

I recommend also scanning for blantant falsehoods connected to kinds of facts too.... This can help identify the character and design of a faulty source Malalas used but we now know is crap. Likewise, we can begin isolating good fragments from excellent authors. We might recover fragments from a few ancient historians via this method.

 

If you ever get to the point of isolating the church histories in this text from what survives, I can get you hooked up with Catholic and Greek Orthodox Seminaries, and perhaps in the future The Church of the East. They would be the major surviving players with stakes involved in this today, with eager theologians, translators and historians. I think they would love the debate, it could spawn a series of books.

 

And I wasn't talking about Philip the Arab. Your smarter than me, you made that connection. I meant someone else, I had no clue Philip was made to attend school. I think your intellectually well equipped for this text.

 

I just developed my own methodology over the years in studying philosophy in tackling information. I'm not trained like the others here. At this point, I'd be interested in the dialectic of them weighing in and ripping up this advance, as my approach to reading texts doesn't inherently invalidate other academic methods. I'm just sicked by constantly seeing historians warn against certain texts, when I can crack them open and instantly see parallels to another text no one noticed before. It usually stems from bad historical practices, and too much insulation from people who can conflict and dispute your position and cultural acceptance of technique. I go out of my way to track such people down.

 

For some reason, I translated in my head unconsciously Valerian as Numerian. I made the connection without even consciously noting it. You noting I noted it caused me to pause.

 

I think it would be worth reading IndianSmith's fictional chapter here, it has some info I didn't know about that he clearly does, about the pouring of melted gold down someone's throat. I think he be a obvious person to ask here about a varient in the Valerian story:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/topic/18042-sample-chapter-from-my-roman-historical-novel/#entry127550

Edited February 11, 2015 by Onasander

[Tom Servo]

And I wasn't talking about Philip the Arab. Your smarter than me, you made that connection. I meant someone else, I had no clue Philip was made to attend school. I think your intellectually well equipped for this text.

 

Thanks for the kind words.  Who was the emperor you meant?  

 

Also, many thanks for the pointers.   This started as a nagging question, and now it looks to be a very interesting research project!

[Onasander]

I was looking over the kings list, and noticed Alexander Severus.

 

I chose not to reply for a while to this thread because I wanted to give my brain time to reorganize around Philip the Arab prior to saying any more. Only info I could remember is from long ago.... If I recall, he 'may' of had a Christian wife. I also recall him heading off to Rome to get approved by the Senate. He is one of those guys who operate in a cognitive void to me.

 

However..... Zenobia kept popping up in my head. I couldn't quite figure out why, as I knew she came later (Marcus Aurelius).

 

I woke up early this morning, thinking about it. Her husband was considered a Oriental Dux.

 

His reign, does potentially overlap Philip the Arabs.

 

However, this part surrealistic, part lucid rest and dreaming method isn't replicable, no good history making.

 

I'm going to be researching your idea here soon. Alexander Severus and his Mother was heavily influenced by Origen. If I recalled correctly, that it was 'possibly' Philip the Arabs wife who was Christian, and he had this run in as you said, and Constantine's Mother St. Catherine was so active with her 'Archeology' in the region, it could suggest a intentional culture in the church of that time to intentionally illicit female aristocratic interest and support, much like the Baha'i do now.

 

Even one of Mohammed's wives was a Christian. Several centuries here.... but could suggest the Christianization process was more feminine oriented in the upper classes of society at the time.

 

I spent so much time resting on this I'll need a little more to figure out just what the relevancy is to the Malalas fragment, I feel a tad bit disoriented. Anyone feel free to jump in here.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Onasander

[Onasander]

St. Babylas did make him stand with the penitants.... According to wiki at least.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Arab

 

Zenobia's Husband:

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odaenathus

 

It shows the difficulty of asserting the beginning of his reign in relation to Philip the Arab. This is important. However, Israel and Turkey are involved in good roman era archeology, this may differ now.

 

He gained his citizenship as a Roman during the several dynasty.

 

Philip the Arab died in Verona, Italy trying to stop Decius. Verona is right next to Milan, if that is a possible correlation. Let's hold off on that investigation for a while.

 

I'm looking for a name that links the two guys together, or shows Philip and the dux are not related.

 

This is a quote:

At first, it seems, Odaenathus attempted to propitiate the Persian monarch Shapur I; but when his gifts were contemptuously rejected (Petr. Patricius, 10) he decided to throw in his lot with the cause of Rome. The neutrality which had made Palmyra's fortune was abandoned for an active military policy which, while it added to Odaenathus's fame, in a short time brought his native city to its ruin. He fell upon the victorious Persians returning home after the sack of Antioch, and before they could cross the Euphrates inflicted upon them a considerable defeat.

 

Then, when two usurping emperors were proclaimed in the East (261), Odaenathus took the side of Gallienus the son and successor of Valerian, attacked and put to death the usurper Quietus at Emesa (modern Homs) and was rewarded for his loyalty by the grant of an exceptional position (262). He may have assumed the title of king before; but he now became totius Orientis imperator, not indeed joint-ruler, nor Augustus, but independent lieutenant of the emperor for the East.

----

 

I'm interested in what caused that retreat. Antioch was worth more in a treaty negotiation than a mere raid for booty.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenagino_Probus

 

Think I found it.

 

This link above. There was a emperor listed in that Malalas link you provided by this name.

 

It right smack up against Zenobia and her husband's reign. The article claims he was confused with the Roman emperor of that name in many sources.

 

He apparently was a very able commander, fought the Goths Navy, and ventured to Siwa to fight nomads. His territory was in the south.

 

I haven't a clue how you can write someone choose a honorable suicide when surrounded. Questions arise about the legitimacy of the transmission of such a story.... After all, who is telling it?

 

So it could of been him who was tortured. He would likely of had a role in winning over and keeping Palmara on the Roman side.

 

But then again, perhaps not.

[Onasander]

Didn't the Romans trade in Gold, Persians Silver?

 

If Shaphur invaded but could not hold..... All the traders off loading in Arabia for the march up Mecca to Palmara would off suddenly been cut off. Likewise in Persia going to Antioch.

 

Shaphur would of lost his tax revenue fast, Arabia be pissed for the same reasons, Palmara would be driven to side with whoever could most quickly end the conflict so trade could resume.

 

They gained a lot of territory in the process.

 

Both the leather purse and molted gold story suggest money as a culprit from the Persian angle.

[Onasander]

The only full English translation of this text is via Australian Catholic University, currently out of print, but a single used one is $150 on Amazon.com.

 

Or read it on scribnotes

 

I'm looking over his version of Alexander the Great.

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B0006EPLZO/R2I3KF4SEIW0EZ/ref=mw_dp_cr?cursor=1&qid=1423767428&sort=rd&sr=8-1

 

Found this from looking at the very beginning. I gotta look up Arrian, I don't recall this.

 

I'm looking for all the physical descriptions right now, my gut says Theophrastus.

 

Oh....

https://books.google.com/books?id=U38fAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=bottios+alexander&source=bl&ots=uxDt2ZiyX4&sig=lxRcySkB1ccPY3GQyz0dyDRH0TA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bSXdVK_YCIzIsQT8zoHgBA&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAg

 

Bottios. He is mentioned in the Alexander section I'm reading, but also apparently our section too.

 

Other Christians note him as well. Decius is close to our chronology.

 

So we have a name.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Onasander

[Onasander]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavia_Domitilla_%28saint%29

 

This relates to the notice I made in general about females converting first, and it gets close to the chronology, I found it while researching Bruttius, the guy I noted in the post above (different spelling).

 

I'm surprised, it's said Bruttius was a chronicler equal to Suetonius.

 

It's also said he is a pagan who wrote on Christianity.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=8kKGT2bR9BcC&pg=PA198&lpg=PA200&ots=MIQTVyUnXn&focus=viewport&dq=bruttius+christian&output=html_text

[Tom Servo]

St. Babylas did make him stand with the penitants.... According to wiki at least.

 

Here's the relevant part from Eusebius, Chapter 34:

 

GORDIANUS had held the government of Rome six years, when he was succeeded by Philip, together with his son Philip. It is said that, as a Christian, on the day of the last vigil of the pass-over, he wished to share with the multitude in the prayers of the church, but was not permitted by the existing bishop to enter before he had confessed his sins, and numbered himself with those who were referred to transgressors, and had space for repent ance. For otherwise he would never be received by him, unless he first did this, on account of the many crimes which he had committed. The emperor is said to have obeyed cheerfully, and exhibited a genuine and religious disposition in regard to his fear of God. 

 

From Chapter 36:

 

There is also an epistle of his [Origen's] extant, addressed to the emperor Philip, and another to his wife Severa; several others also to different persons. 

 

From Chapter 39:

 

PHILIP, after a reign of seven years, was succeeded by Decius, who, in consequence of his hatred to Philip, raised a persecution against the church, in which Fabianus suffered martyrdom

 

I found some interesting notes in Margaret A. Schatkin's translation of John Chrysostom's Apologist.  On page 62, she mentions a general named Numerius (not the guy accused of embezzlement under Julian) who persecuted Christians on Decius' orders.  While I doubt Numerius was mistaken for an emperor, someone looking at a fragmentary (and long) list of emperors from 200 years before could have gotten the names mixed up at some point.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Tom Servo

[Onasander]

Can you better explain that 200 years before part, I'm not processing it.

 

-----

 

In regards to Bruttius, he has a wiki under the name 'Caius Bruttius Praesens'. I lost the link, it's written that way in my notebook.

 

The Brutti family has a very long geneology:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=uZqQjkb07g8C&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&ots=qRweij52JH&focus=viewport&dq=bruttius+roman&output=html_text

 

This geneology contradicts the end assumption of the note of the author here in thus fantastically overpriced history book:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=U38fAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA593&lpg=PA593&ots=uxDt2-gCQb&focus=viewport&dq=bruttius+roman&output=html_text

 

Doesn't seem to be the coincidence he thinks it is, now does it?

 

Issue arises however, it could be ANY of those Bruttius in that very long genealogy who wrote this.

 

I'll have to scoure through everything for a while, I'm gonna have to find a pattern in Malalas till this guy starts emerging from other contributors.

 

My head hurts, I'm likely messing up the names or centuries of certain emperors, so if anyone is criticing this in the far future, I did my research on breaks at work. I haven't gotten a solid timeline yet to check linearity yet.

[Tom Servo]

Can you better explain that 200 years before part, I'm not processing it.

 

Sorry, I meant the 200 years between Numerian's reign and Malalas writing about it.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Tom Servo

[Onasander]

I better understand that 200 years now.

 

I'm gonna need to know what legion, where they were based out of, and background on his gens.

 

It may be that generals were considered more autonomous by ancient historians in this era, and were credited or discredited by them, but later generations with a more centralized, imperial outlook just assumed it was the emperors with similar names. After all, that's why Christians were persecuted, not honouring the emperor? The cult of the emperor may of dismally failed in achieving worship, but it does seem to of won the renown it demanded even by Christians in wholly christian eras. I never could quite grasp how Christians came to fanatically accept the emperors as they later did.

 

 

So.... Philostorgius wrote a Adrian church history, Photius wrote yet another epitome, this time on him. It's recorded here:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/philostorgius.htm

 

There is a more modern translation of Philostorgius by Philip R. Amidon, it takes into account works like Artemii Passio, that holds fragments of his unedited work.

 

This history has popped up in my looking around, so likely holds some relation.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Onasander

[Onasander]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_III

 

Persians think they killed him at The Battle of Misiche, Romans just assumed Philip the Arab offed him off upriver at Zaitha.

 

He could of been made into a purse. He did fight Shapur I.

[Onasander]

On the contrary, the contemporary and later Roman sources claim that the Roman expedition was entirely or partially successful but the emperor was murdered after a plot by Philip the Arab.[7] However, some scholars think that the Sassanid victory must not be invented and reject Philip's plot as the ultimate reason of Gordian's murder. Even if that is true, it isn't likely that Gordian died in the battlefield, as Shapur's inscription claims.[3][8] Even more, some sources mention a cenotaph of the murdered emperor at Zaita, near Circesium of Osroene (some 400 km north of Misiche).[9][10] The confusion of the sources about the expedition and the assassination of the emperor makes it more possible that, after the defeat, Roman army was frustrated enough to get rid of the teenage emperor.[3]

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Misiche

[Onasander]

I was stationed not to far from where this battle supposedly took place.

 

Okay, we are drifting back slowly into my knowledge base now:

During Trajan's time, around 116 AD, the Roman general Lucius Quietus sacked Edessa and put an end to Osrhoene's independence. After the war with Parthians under Marcus Aurelius, forts were built and a Roman garrison was stationed in Nisibis. Osrhoene attempted to throw off the Roman yoke, however in 216, its king Abgar IX[clarification needed] was imprisoned and exiled to Rome and the region became a Roman province. In the period from Trajan's conquest (116) to 216, Christianity began to spread in Edessa. Abgar IX (179-186 AD) was the first Christian King of Edessa. It is believed that the Gospel of Thomas emanated from Edessa around 140 AD. Prominent early Christian figures have lived in and emerged from this region such as Tatian the Assyrian who came to Edessa from Hadiab (Adiabene). He made a trip to Rome and returned to Edessa around 172-173. He had controversial opinions, seceded from the Church, denounced marriage as defilement and maintained that the flesh of Christ was imaginary. He composed Diatessaron or "harmony of the Gospels"(Ewangelion da-mhalte) in Syriac, which contained eclectic ideas from Jewish-Christian and dualistic traditions. This became the Gospel par excellence of Syriac-speaking Christianity until in the 5th century Rabbula, bishop of Edessa, suppressed it and substituted a revision of the Old Syriac Canonical Gospels (Ewangelion da-mfarshe).[15]

 

After this, Edessa was again brought under Roman control by Decius and it was made a center of Roman operations against the Persian Sassanids. Amru, possibly a descendant of Abgar, is mentioned as king in the Paikuli inscription, recording the victory of Narseh in the Sassanid civil war of 293. Historians identify this Amru as Amru ibn Adi, the fourth king of the Lakhmid dynasty which was at that time still based in Harran, not yet moved to Hirah in Babylonia.[16]

 

Many centuries later, Dagalaiphus and Secundinus duke of Osrhoene, accompanied Julian in his war against the Sassanid king Shapur II in the 4th century.[17]

 

In his writings Pliny refers to the natives of Osroene and Commagene as Arabs and the region as Arabia.[18] According to Pliny, a nomadic Arab tribe called Orrhoei occupied Edessa about 130 BC.[19] Orrhoei founded a small state ruled by their chieftains with the title of kings and the district was called after them Orrhoene. This name eventually changed into Osroene, in assimilation to the Parthian name Osroes or Chosroes (Khosrau).[20]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osroene

 

He is buried there in a Cenotaph? It was turned into a launching point for operations under Decius?