Roman Parthian border

[speedlearner]

I'm going to refer to the period of time between Marc Antony's defeat after he marched across Armenia and fought the Parthians and the time when Nero became an emperor.  I know that many Roman soldiers weren't pleased with the defeat of Marc Antony and I also know that the Roman Controlled Judea was filled with bandits.  So what I want to know is how safe was it to travel across the Roman Parthian border?

 

The reason I ask is due to the travel plans of the Magi as they journeyed to the birthplace of Jesus.  After all, they brought a large quantity of frankincense and Myrrh across the border.  Some say that they also brought a large amount of gold across the border.  Would that have been safe to do?  Would the Roman soldiers, upon seeing the magi, treat them like diplomats?  Would the Roman soldiers been intimidated by the priestly nature of the Magi?  Would the Magi have bribed the Roman soldiers to gain safe passage across the border?  Or would the magi have sneaked across the border?

 

I know the magi were well versed in the uses of frankincense and myrrh.  And I also know that there weren't a lot of apothecary shops in the region.  Is it possible that they knew how to manufacture frankincense and myrrh?  I'm sure they probably knew how to travel to Arabia to obtain the ingredients.  I know they used frankincense and myrrh in their priestly rituals.  But is it possible that they bartered some of their frankincense and myrrh for gold?  

[Onasander]

No, the travel routes have never been safe.... ever, up to this day. Period.

 

However, the traders adapted to this, as well as the local governing powers.

 

The trade routes from every direction converged on Judea, and I know the Arabian branch had secure trader facilities along the route so the caravans could receive protection and water,eat a little.

 

Secondly, caravans existed in the first place so as to provide security in numbers.

 

Only people who are going to attack a caravan will be a significantly large military force. A few guys would get beaten easily.

 

I believe the states evolved reciprocity to the local rulers, you keep the bandits in check, and don't attack us, we will each pay a toll tax of sorts.

 

The trade routes were already ancient by time Rome gained control of the region. They inherited a system, one of the advantages of maintaining client kingdoms is you don't lose the local knowledge and have to reinvent the wheel regarding such traditions, great way around economic game theory paradoxes regarding knowing how to manage a trade route in terms of customs, costs, patrolling, and expected responsibilities that will keep the Indian traders coming in.

[Onasander]

Oh, and yeah.... traders trade, so in theory they could of traded anything with one another.

 

 

The Zoroastrians to this day claim Jesus was a prophet they prophesied, and hence why they were actively searching for him.

 

It is very difficult to prove, as their texts are eaten up (no reference I found, but we know much of their works are gone), and likewise the Vatican and the other patriarchal sees have downplayed this aspects, while relishing the story romantically. It's a great story to tell, just has unnerving implications.

 

My preference is to doubt this happened, but not to the point to deny it. There have been attempts to date a supernova explosion to that night, and the bible has been notorious for collapsing the best atheistic theories out there after a little archaeological work and investigation. They found cuneiform texts listing the location of Eden and Nod, and Gobekli Tepe was eerily found very close to where Abraham was from (his home town), and very close by (twenty miles) is where agriculture began. There has been alot of study of the weather patterns hitting egypt during the the Jewish exodus from Egypt that explains the various plagues, and even the water in the sea separating.

 

There has been a historic renaissance of sorts as of later as confidence in these old texts have been increasingly confirmed. I none the less advocate caution and skepticism, and look at all the factors at play, and read parallel works... ancient and modern. A hustorian does a great disservice to the bible if we take it too literally or on a faith basis alone, it too is a historic work, and needs to be applied to the same pressures any other work receives. It has yielded us so much.... we rediscovered Ur and other Mesopotamian states due to it, gives us a better comprehension of ancient myths and politics.... was the lone text that survived antiquity that even mentioned the Hittites, or our earliest agricultural origins stretching back 12,000 years ago.

 

Very useful text, but our first duty as historians is to be skeptical and raise questions, and not get too dogmatic or accepting.... if you do that, I promise you, it will yield unexpected treasures.

[speedlearner]

Thank you so much for your information.  Most of what you told me confirms my theories about the magi.  I'm sure it would be difficult to prove whether the magi brought the gold across the border or if they acquired the gold after the crossed the border since nobody alive today was there when they crossed it.  But the research I've done so far indicates how dangerous the border really was.  After all, there was an invasion of Armenia in 37 ad that didn't conclude until 47 ad.  And Nero had his own struggle with Armenia around 60 ad.  So I'm sure the magi wouldn't have crossed the border with just three men and no armaments.  Papyrus documents from that period of time would be difficult to find due to the Roman invasion of Judea in 70 ad as well as the passage of time.  So all people like me can do is read the literature that is available and draw the best conclusions that we can. 

[caldrail]

 

 

So what I want to know is how safe was it to travel across the Roman Parthian border?

There was no actual border in those days, or at least, not a defined line on a map. The frontier between the two areas was indistinct as it was a desert with few geographical features to refer to.

 

In terms of safety, in depended on a great many things. Enviromentally there were risks - deserts are not the easiest place to live in - and the fact there were bandits in those areas suggest there were only bandits in places that supported their lifestyles, so much of the region was in fact free of them, although we can't discount the possibility of travel to or fro from routes and hideouts. This means logicaly that getting unwanted attention from a bandit gang was something of a lottery, depending on where they had decided to focus their activity, and where the caravan was in relation to them. bandits weren't always violent - they might just as easily extort bribes for safe passage, or be in a state of idleness - the whole point of stealing wealth was that they had wealth to spend, which requires that on occaision they went off and spent it.

 

Trade in that area was in fact quite busy, especially since it represented one end of the Silk Road, with wealthy city states in sheltered places that depended on traders for survival. banditry was certainly prevailent, but intermittent, and quite often tolls had been paid and the caravan passed without incident.

[Novosedoff]

On 10/20/2014 at 1:25 AM, speedlearner said:

The reason I ask is due to the travel plans of the Magi as they journeyed to the birthplace of Jesus.

Holy f..king sh*t. Please pardon me my Russky-English 😂 But in order for you to believe that there were any real Magi you gotta also believe that their relics are now buried in the Cologne Cathedral of Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine_of_the_Three_Kings

The whole story of magi is a literary myth created in order to demonstrate the superiority of Christianity over Parphian Zoroastrian religion. 

[Novosedoff]

Btw since all the relics of all magi were found at the same place, we should also suspect that the circumstances of their simultaneous deaths must have been rather dark and violent. Otherwise in natural circumstances they would have ended their lives at different times at different places. 

[caldrail]

Christian relics have little or no connection with actual events or people. The vast majority are almost certainly fakes. Relic sales were big business in the Middle Ages. Plenty of easily impressed potential customers.

[Novosedoff]

Well, as some folks put it, if one gathers all the relics belonging to one ancient saint person, they will inevitably end up with 2 football teams and 1 cavalry regiment 😄