The Sense Of Honor

[Zeke]

Well....Honor lets talk about that,

 

Every society has a sense of honor, so how was Roman "Honor"

different from Celtic,German,Jappense,Chinese, American, Etc.

 

Please go into depth about these different cultures and their sense of honor compared to Roman sense of the word "honor."

 

Zeke

[Demson]

Roman honour had much to do with patriotism, preserving the state, furfilling your duty.

 

Celtic honour had more to do with personal valour and achievement.

 

Japanese honour was all about servitude.

 

German honour is about brewing beer and eating sausages.

 

American honour is about drinking beer the German's brew.

 

 

Alright, that's all I can think of on this early morning.

[Ursus]

Excellent topic, Zeke.

 

From what I've read the various Indo-European societies, having a common origin, had similar values they prized. Among them were courage, duty, obedience to one

[Demson]

know I

[Zeke]

URSUS SAID:

The Celts could still fight each other to death over who got to sit at the most honored spot in a tribal feast, such was their prickly sense of tribal honor. The Romans became a little more cold-blooded and pragmatic within the context of their evolving city-state and empire.

 

 

So what your trying to say Ursus, is that the Celts could just stand up to any other warrior and chanllenge him to a dual because he insulted his honor. While a Roman would stand up at a dinner party offer a toast to his oppenent then a couple weeks latter get an assiasian to stab him in a dark alley way in the name of his famliy honor and is own personal ambition??? All in the name of the Imperial State?

[Ursus]

"To the Celts warfare was a matter of honor which could begin and end in a personal single combat. It was often a matter of individual courage. Generally, the Celts were not interested in central authority and discipline. They thought as individuals ...

 

The problem was, in battle against the Romans, the cultural differences resulted in different endings. If a Celt was beaten in single combat, often the Celtic army would accept that the matter had been resolved and fade away. If a Celt won the combat then the Roman forces did not go away and merely fell on the Celts in a fury to exact revenge.

 

... For the Romans war was a cold-blooded profession and the legion had been trained to fight as units. Unquestioning obedience to the commands of their officers was essential and they relied on their fellows to act as a cohesive force. Roman generals wrote and studied military treatises, and planning and method became important. That planning, that ruthlessness, finally gave Rome the military advantage. Indeed, a certain lack of humanity, a devotion to discipline, and a severity of punishment to any who lacked a complete commitment to the will of a central power, appear necessary for the growth of an imperial regime. The Roman legionary had to be more frightened of his superiors than he was of the enemy. The same principle has often been applied in modern armies ... "

 

Peter Ellis. _The Celts, A History_

[longbow]

I took this from Josephus account of the seige of Jerusalem.

 

During a combat at range with javelins, Longinus, a cavalryman, leaped out from the Roman lines and charged the mass of the enemy. He killed one, pulled his spear out, stabbed another in the side, and then made his way safely back to his comrades. Others subsequently emulated his deed. On one occasion a Jew challenged any Roman who dared. Pudens, another cavalryman, answered the challenge but tripped during the fight, and the Jewish challenger killed him, only to be shot down in the act of vaunting over the body by a Roman centurion with a bow.

 

In Josephus' account, reckless bravery was primarily the province of the Roman army's auxiliary soldiers. Pudens was certainly an auxiliary; Longinus probably was also. During a Jewish sally, an exceptionally strong auxiliary cavalryman reached down from his saddle, grabbed a fleeing enemy by the ankle, and then bore his armored captive off just as he was to be admired by Titus.

 

Seems to me that the Romans(auxillia) didnt allways pass up the chance of single combat.

 

 

Titus fumed and ranted -- "among the Romans even victory without orders is a disgrace!" Josephus has him insist. He terrified the disobedient soldiers by threatening the horrible penalty for fighting without orders: death. But then Titus allowed the pleas of the legions to soften his anger, and no one was punished. Like Vespasian at Gamala, Titus contented himself with a lecture. At the climax of the siege, he would have reason to rejoice that he did not bloodily stamp out his soldiers' initiative.

 

titus says "its a disgrace to win without orders" thats the Roman mindset,Its all about the Glory and Honour for the Commanders.

 

L

[Zeke]

hmmm intresting ideas we all got here. How about the Huns?? What was their idea of honor? Or it was like Germanic Honor?

(Even though they wern't Germanic)

 

Zeke

[Favonius Cornelius]

What is dignitas to the Romans? It was personal honor, as defined by social mores and expectation of a culture. It depended on personal accomplishment in all things, not just war: financial, political, social, personal. I do not know if the concept was as alive in the times of the Empire, but during the Republic it helped define the over all success of the Roman man.

[Favonius Cornelius]

American honour is about drinking beer the German's brew.

 

 

What is your nationality Demson, so that I can tell you what your version of honor is?

[Demson]

American honour is about drinking beer the German's brew.

 

 

What is your nationality Demson, so that I can tell you what your version of honor is?

 

I'm Dutch. We're too sober to have a sense of honour.

 

Would have liked to be American though. Drinking German beer is a noble thing to do.

[Ursus]

This American drinks irish beer. :-)

 

The beers of the world and their fans might deserve its own thread. I'll take the pro-Guinness faction.

[Moonlapse]

Irish, Belgian, German, whatever. I love it. Guinness is quintessential though.

 

Anyways, all I have to say about honor is that it doesn't involve contradictions. I know few truly honorable people.

[Favonius Cornelius]

I prefer Caffreys myself. No need for such bitterness eh!

[Zeke]

The sense of honor.....to beer drinking. What is the world comming to?

 

Zeke