WIN!!! Legio17: Roman Legion at War

[Legio17]

When you say Cisalpine Gaul and Austria, you mean Northern Italy and Im guessing the Tyrol.... which is close to Italy and was the Northern gate into Italy... a essential corridor to break any opportunistic movements in and out of Italy by Hannibals supporters, or other hostiles....

 

I might be wrong about the locations, but thats pretty smart, a theater wide cordon. Its always bothered me the Romans couldnt secure their own territory from blatantly alien, fast as hell couriers sending messages to and from Hannibal while in Capua to Spain.

 

In your opinion, how did the Romans set up their legions in the North? Did they quickly retrace and reclaim Hannibals route in the Alps, redouble patrols around Marseilles, set up a elementry coast guard near Capua to check trade, and use spies and double agents, or were they a mix of that and thick headedness (Rome Knows Best), or just completely, miserably lost and demoralized, effectively turtling?

 

I toss and turn in my assumptions here. How effective is a supreme, Executive Unicameral Senate at setting and executing such a diverse program of strategies?

Hi Onasander!  Yes you are correct.  Northern Italy and Tirol (I'm used to the German spelling since that's where my father was born).  

Hannibal posed an existential threat to the very survival of Rome and it required all of Rome's resources to simply contain him in the south (as well as take back all the important towns that went over to Hannibal).  I have no direct evidence that Rome sent any Legions to Northern Italy much less Tirol between 218-207 BC.  Nonetheless, it would have been extremely shortsighted of the Senate to forget that they had a mortal enemy in their own backyard who even sacked Rome in 387 BC.  Also, Rome established colonies in Northern Italy, Piacenza and Cremona, in 218 BC and undoubtedly would have continued to support them with supplies, work details, etc.  In my book, Leg XVII is sent to Northern Italy to demonstrate Rome's continuing interest in the region, visit the colonies, and maintain a presence.  It makes sense to me that Rome attained and maintained her dominance by always looking down the road for the next threat even while fighting the current one.  The USA does the same thing.

In 207 BC, Rome did sent multiple Legion north to confront Hannibal's brother Hasdrubal and won a decisive victory.  Again,in 206 BC, Legions were sent to Milan to contain Hannibal's younger brother Mago and defeated him in 203 BC.  Other than those two occasions when troops were actually deployed, I suspect that Rome did what any great power does to maintain situational awareness~whatever it takes.

​How effective was the Roman system of governance?  I would speculate that like all great world powers, including the USA, it's very messy, scandalous at times, ineffective, flat out stupid, brilliant, short sighted, but somehow, it all works~for a time.  Rome had the Senate, Consuls, Magistrates, and the Tribunes of Plebes not to mention lots of special interests.  For the most part, they got the job done.  

  

[Legio17]

Great opportunity! I really hope to win and read. Thank you!

 

Cynthia

Ms. Cynthia, Thank you for your post!  Obviously you appreciate history and historical fiction.  My book is a creative blend of the two.  I took pains to ensure my fictional Legio XVII would not be confused with actual historical events.  To do this, I have Legio XVII operate on the fringe of the actual Roman effort to contain and defeat Hannibal, but much of what Leg XVII does is impacted by the 2nd Punic War.  For example, the Commander of Leg XVII has to identify creative solutions to recruit and outfit the Legion in terms of Legionaries, equipment, animals, etc, because the entire Roman Army is committed to defeating Hannibal and resources are scarce.

 

Good luck to you and thanks for posting.

[Legio17]

Ancient Rome STILL has much to teach us today! What do you think will be the next "revelation"?

Mr. Walsh, I appreciate your question.  You are obviously a student of history and mindful of the lessons it can still teach us.  I share that view point.  This is a fascinating topic and much has been written about it.  With that in mind, 10 years ago, I read Samuel P. Huntington's book, "The Clash of Civilizations," Simon & Schuster, 1997 (367 pages).  Huntington's focus is very broad and includes more than just lessons from ancient Rome, but there are common threads (good and bad) throughout all civilizations that spell success or failure.  He talks about the rule of law as the foundation of a successful and dynamic civilization.  I believe a country's ideology, will, resources, wealth, and debt also play a critical role.  Rome maintained influence in their world through diplomacy, their military, their wealth, and desire to maintain their empire.  When Rome began to contract, she lost her ability to influence events.  Some would argue that western civilizations have been contracting for many years and the pace is even accelerating.  This can be caused by an ideology, lack of will, or scarcity of resources.  I'll leave it at that.

[Onasander]

And the winner is.... Viggen?

 

Honestly, its been a month.

[Legio17]

And the two winners are:  Osasander and R. Walsh.  

Osasander two questions demonstrate an envious depth of knowledge and solid appreciation for ancient Roman history.  A winner!  

R. Walsh similarly shows an acute awareness of the lessons history can teach us.  A winner!

Viggen will shortly contact each separate to provide the free code from Smashwords.

Thanks to all for your participation.  It was fun!

[R. Walsh]

Thank you very much for selectung me! Its an honor!

[Legio17]

Thank you sir for asking such an interesting question.  Hope you enjoy the book.

[Onasander]

Just downloaded it a few seconds ago, thanks. 

[Legio17]

Just downloaded it a few seconds ago, thanks. 

Onasander, first, I apologize for repeatedly misspelling your name in our earlier posts.  And secondly, you asked some really good questions and deserve to win a free book.  I hope my book is up to your standards.  The information about the 2nd Punic War is as accurate as I could get it.  You should like that.  I've just decided to attempt a second book, which builds on the first and will included the defeat of Hannibal at Zama in 202 B.C.  Manius will again lead Legio XVII to North Africa after a trip back to Austria and into Germany.  Should be interesting and, again, historically accurate.      

[Onasander]

Hmmm.... okay.

 

You do know my name is a Roman military theorist, right?

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0674991729?pc_redir=1404841565&robot_redir=1

 

When I was in the army, the first captain of the unit I was in messed up his inventories by several hundred thousand dollars, not counting the humvees he was missing..... he didn't pay attention to what he was and wasnt signing for, and got screwed bad for it. They moved him to Battalion, then somehow got rid of him by sending him to west point. I gave him my copy of this edition to read and bring with him.

 

Dont take Asclepciodotus too seriously, he was a Stoic screwing around on a topic he didnt know, but Aeneas Tacticus would of been important. Onasander was very general.... never made claim to originality. He is a principate writer, but the War Scroll of the dead sea Scroll is mostly just extracts similar to Onasander..... so the text got around as traditions prior to Onasander slapping the final concept together.

 

You also have Frontinius to look over. Look to to Cicero's Republic, it deals alot with Scipio Africanus.

 

I know more, just cant think of it. Oh.... Arrian, he was a Stoic Historian, wrote mostly on Epictetus, but also produced a very fine work on Alexander the great.

 

If I recall correctly, a Cartheginian was incharge of either Plato or Aristotles school in Athens at the time.

 

Oh, and check this site' archeology section, they just uncovered the first example of a Cartheginian helmet off sicily, and found the Roman ships were smaller and more powerful. Belisarius in Libya and Carthage much later on gives you a appreciation of how the armies would of moved, as well as The Jugunthine War, which takes place after your era, but still useful.

 

http://mathematica.ludibunda.ch/areas.html

 

Of course, works on statecraft existed, from the peripatetic and stoic traditions. Philosophers dont exist in a void, if one cane to dominate Athens from carthage, it suggests a library or something resembling a school from Carthage working in connection to the senatorial class.

 

Then again, perhaps not.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Onasander

[Onasander]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herillus

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitomachus_(philosopher)

 

Clitomachus continued to reside at Athens till the end of his life; but he continued to cherish a strong affection for his native country, and when Carthage was taken in 146 BC, he wrote a work to console his unfortunate countrymen. This work, which Cicero says he had read, was taken from a discourse of Carneades, and was intended to exhibit the consolation which philosophy supplies even under the greatest calamities.[5] His work was highly regarded by Cicero,[6] who based parts of his De Natura, De Divinatione and De Fato on a work of Clitomachus he names as On the Withholding of Assent (Latin: De Sustinendis Offensionibus).[7]

 

Clitomachus probably treated the history of philosophy in his work on the philosophical sects: On the Schools of Thought (Greek: περί αἱρέσεων).[8]

 

Two of Clitomachus' works are known to have been dedicated to prominent Romans, the poet Gaius Lucilius and the one-time consul Lucius Marcius Censorinus,[9] suggesting that his work was known and appreciated in Rome.

[Onasander]

No.... scipio fought second punic was 218-202. He wrote about the destruction of the city in 146.

 

50 years plus, but gives you a intellectual sense of the city, and hannibals background. He was quite civilized, as was his people.

[Legio17]

Onasander, I truly appreciate your message!  First, I knew Onasander was not your real name, but was unaware of the identity of your pseudonym.  Next, besides Onasander, you mentioned six other individuals from antiquity: Asclepciodotus, Aeneas Tacticus, Frontinus, Arrian, Belisarius, and Clitomachus  I looked them up and read a brief synopsis of their fame and accomplishments.

 

Your knowledge of these men, and, I presume, their writings is truly praiseworthy.  Because of you, my list of must read books has just grown considerably.  I hope to use the stratagems of war that they write about as well as other applicable tidbits in my next book about Legio XVII.

 

Thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge of history.  I am indebted.

[Onasander]

There are more texts than this..... especially later in the Roman empire, alot of colonel and above oriented works out there actually.

 

Since your going for a US Army S-3 approach, and got to a Lt. Colonel rank, whereas I was a low ranking spaz, I'm going to recommend to you Virgil 61. There was some bruised egos a while back, and half while this site was down went one way under him, other half stayed put. We differ in focus in military history, and is my equal (though differing in emphasis of military history study)..... but I think for your precise needs, he is the best choice I know for you to go and knock up for information, as he can much better anticipate your needs for a potential reading list and much better criticize and review your ideas.... he was at least a 1sg, was Airborne Infantry (like me) then a leg, and I think he mentioned being a CSM..... so you two should get react to one another instinctively in terms of him catching you up to speed. Better than some Specialist like me on a forum. However, if you still get stuck with a question, ask me and I can help.

 

This is his forum: 

 

http://classicalhistory.invisionzone.com/

 

He is the administrator, and don't tell him I sent you.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Onasander

[Legio17]

Onasander, I appreciate another great response.  Thank you for the additional information and link to the Classical History website.  I looked it over and it appears to be another site with much to contribute to my continuing education.  (No big deal, but I was promoted to Colonel and served in that rank for 3 + years on the Joint Staff in the Pentagon before retiring  Met a lot of bright people and future General Officers.)