Soldiers accuse you of being "sheltered" if you're not pro

[Pisces Axxxxx]

A few months ago I made a blog statement about how a soldier isn't NECESSARILY a hero and some of them are such thugs that even if they "died for the country" they should not be honored but should be despised as loser thugs because if they didn't serve in the armed forces they would have wouldn't have anything to be praised for and some of them even CONTINUE their criminal acts while in service such as an incident a while back in which a former soldier who had a prior criminal record actually kidnapped an Iraqi girl and sold her into sex slavery. All I stated is that we should be careful about "honoring war veteran" and we should refrain from judging the vet because some of them are truly worthless scumbags. One guy who claims to have been a marine in Vietnam started attacking me, stating by my post he can tell I am "sheltered" and had been fortunate not to experience the "grim realities of life". He went praising such scumbags because "they died for the country" and ranted how disrespectful he found my post. He stated the military has the "BRAVEST" of the population even if they are scumbags because they are willing to fight wars most citizens are not willing to and thus they should be honored for dying for the country even if they were scumbags before enlisting and they continue war crimes while in uniform.WAIT WAIT WAIT so by using his logic, the Imperial Japanese soldiers who raped innocent teen girls like the Filipina Rosa Henson and Indonesian victim Ronasih ARE HEROES simply because they died for the country???!!! What the ****...... 

But back to the issue. This ex-marine didn't even know anything about me. I may not have been to war, but I am definitely NOT SHELTERED. I seen lots of terrible things that haunt me to this day and even experienced some myself and I do not WANT to talk about. But simply because I was stating a blunt truth some of these soldiers are not only immoral crooks, but they even participate in crimes against humanity.......... He's attacking me as SHELTERED???!!! I'm not going to use my own experiences because they are too personal but I'm NOT SHELTERED at all by Western standards. 

To use another example, I know of a guy who came from Cuba. Actually he is now upper class, considerably rich even in American standards. He is ANTI-MILITARY and HATES the US government and military and he openly admits he is anarchist. Even I initially thought he was sheltered because of his anti-military and anti-government rants. BUT I discovered HE LOST his entire family when he was trying to escape to America. His mama and papa DIED from exposure during the escape on an improvised raft and when he landed in Florida, he was ******* STARVING as in he hadn't eaten and drink for DAYS!!!! In addition his hate for soldiers and anti-military beliefs are not without justification. When he was in Cuba, the soldiers patrolling the country were known to bully the local populace and steal food, money, etc. In his case, the SOLDIERS forced his older sister to be pimped into prostitution just to put FOOD on the TABLE. This guy experienced firsthand how abusive soldiers can be. And he gained his wealth by WORKING his *** OFF as young as 11 13 around that age range and struggling to survive in his first 10 years of America. I disagree with lots of his opinion, but I can understand why he hates soldiers and government. By using the Vietnam war marine I argued with, this Cuban guy is sheltered and never had to live through the harsh realities of life???!!! 

In parts of South America, the national armed forces are HATED by the populace. Because not only have they committed acts of genocide/mass execution, but they frequently steal from the people and are known to kidnap locals for human trafficking. It gotten so bad in some countries in the continent, gangs and local armed militia will shoot you on sight if you are wearing uniform or kill you in your sleep if you reveal being a member of the armed forces. Are the populations of these countries sheltered because they ******* HATE their military and see them as worthless scumbags who deserve to be killed? 

Even when you don't state anything offensive but merely question things or state someone else's opinions, many military supporters and military personnel accused you of being sheltered. I remember I stated the US defense budget is WAAAAYYYYY too HIGH. I didn't state anything about cuts and some soldiers in Facebook start attacking me as being an ungrateful and that I should be deported to Iran and stuff like that so I can see the "REAL WORLD"............. 

What do you think of this? Being a pro-military and being sheltered HAVE NO CORRELATION.

Additional Details

In addition to the examples I listed above, I know people in the military who despise some veterans despite "dying for the country" because these vets were pedophiles and some even committed identity theft that stole said guys actually in the military. If military personnel actually hate them, I don't see whats wrong with calling them losers despite dying for the country.

3 months ago

In fact I can list as many people who are flag waving patriots who support high defense spendings who are "sheltered". I know one guy next doors who's approaching 25 and he's still living with his parents and is not studying nor does he have even a part time job. He spends his free time playing video games and sleeping. But he is all out on "supporting the troops" and he in local parades he's always out in front trying to send thank-you notes and yelling at soldiers how much he loves them and how grateful he is for their service to the country.

3 months ago

So he doesn't get attacked simply because he kisses up to the military? Despite the fact he is "living in his parent's basement" (lol I don't know if he does but he's definitely "sheltered" by Western standards)? While all of use who actually have a life with jobs or currently studying in school get attacked as lacking real world experience and not experiencing the harsh realities of life simply because we don't blindly worship the military and we even give criticisms when they're due? What a load of BULLSHIT!!!

3 months ago

In many cases its TRULY UNDERSTANDABLE why someone would hate the military. Who can blame the rich Cuban I mentioned? His sister had to go into PROSTITUTION to the local soldiers and he was so poor in Cuba because the soldiers often robbed the poor people of their property. Who can blame any of the comfort women for not eagerly supporting their country's military (some even being aggressively anti-militaristic) and hating the Imperial Japanese Army?These girls were so DAMMMNN young (some only reaching their teens at 13) when they were dragged out of their homes and sent to brothels to be repeatedly raped brutally everyday?

3 months ago

By the Vietnam war vet marine's logic, Rosa Henson and Ronasih as well as the thousands of young victims of the Japanese army's comfort woman system are sheltered?DESPITE the fact they lost their virginity before they even had the chance to crush on some dreamy boy??!!!!

3 months ago

[Onasander]

I recommend, since you  are on a Roman Forum, and are touching aspects of statecraft, you should read Aeneas the Tactician/Aeneas Tacticus. Loeb classical library has the best version. 

 

 

Indeed, the military has scumbags, but also a lot of good guys. In fact, no section of the population is without either. We can test your opinions empirically and statistically, delving into the philosophy and theory behind having armies, their historical abuses to human rights, as well as hazards on not having them, as well as talk about the failure of your Cuban friend's former government's military, the bastista, to be respected, connect or bond to the people, allowing them to be overthrown by scum.....

 

In dialectic debate, there tends to be two sides to every point, emotion blinds US to one side. We can talk about those scumbags Swiss soldiers in detail if you like as well, or the Swedes in the Congo. 

 

Read Aeneas first, he is the root of western military thought.

[Onasander]

http://demonax.info/doku.php?id=text:how_to_survive_under_siege

 

That is a translation of the text, online for free. It's not too long. 

[caldrail]

Pride in military performance is not unusual, and so I suppose neither is scorn for 'softies' in civilian life. I must admit I have come across this attitude from the louder and self important serving members of the armed forces. Sometimes it's understandable as the men have gone through difficult times and coped. In some cases it's bluster and arrogance, or if you like, an excuse to bully others. It must be said that accounts of warfare in living memory do underline the maturing aspect of service - young men rapidly lose their innocence in the face of wartime conditions - yet I also note that many servicemen are quiet and polite in public unlike their more drunken or outspoken colleagues. Warfare has a tendency to accentuate what already exists in peoples characters. It brings out the best and worst of people.

[Pisces Axxxxx]

Pride in military performance is not unusual, and so I suppose neither is scorn for 'softies' in civilian life. I must admit I have come across this attitude from the louder and self important serving members of the armed forces. Sometimes it's understandable as the men have gone through difficult times and coped. In some cases it's bluster and arrogance, or if you like, an excuse to bully others. It must be said that accounts of warfare in living memory do underline the maturing aspect of service - young men rapidly lose their innocence in the face of wartime conditions - yet I also note that many servicemen are quiet and polite in public unlike their more drunken or outspoken colleagues. Warfare has a tendency to accentuate what already exists in peoples characters. It brings out the best and worst of people.

 

Thing is the bias they have-if a civilian is kissing up to the military to the point of obsession (having posters of the US marines on his wall, buying Airforce toys,etc) they immediately praise him as though he is mature (ignoring the fact he may be abusive to his siblings and he never been outside his hometown his whole life).

 

Yet if a storekeeper is complaining soldiers are scumbags for wrecking his store and robbing his property, soldiers attack him as being "sheltered" because he fails to appreciate the "sacrifices" the armed forces are making to defend his "freedom". WAIT you just violated his rights and you took away his freedom from fear by vandalizing his store! Furthermore this storekeeper is already living in borderline poverty and he has to work his ASS off VERY HARD just to pay off the rent. He is "sheltered" simply because he (rightfully) attack the soldiers as worthless scumbags despite the fact they later died in  some other foreign war? I mean this storekeeper children starved to death because you just took away his only means of living by wrecking his store and stealing the property he needed to sell just to keep up with basic necessities! 

 

Or what if Japanese soldier gangraped you? Are you "sheltered" simply because you stated you were glad they died in the following battles as Americans freed the island? I mean even the American soldiers would despise these Japanese soldiers as utter scumbags who deserved to be shot!

 

Yet simply because you openly expresses love for the military, you're immediately appreciated and you're praised as "mature" by military vets. I'm not lying my next door neighbor is approaching 25 but he still lives with his parents and he is literally leeching on them. Shouldn't he be bashed as sheltered? I mean he never worked once in his life and when I come home from work I can hear loud sounds from his home as late as midnight from his gaming! I admit I even woke up a few times and came to work late because I couldn't sleep early at night.

 

This neighbor manchild of mine is even VERY FAT and BLOATED and he lives the life of a hedonist (I see him purchasing games using his parent's credit cards when I go to gamestop and even purchase jewelry to give to others using his parents money when he is flirting with others girls and so forte). So he fits "SOFTIE" by all definitions even civilian standards. Shouldn't the military bash him for being a fatso hedonist who can't even do a pushup by himself and leeching on his parents?

 

Honestly like the Cuban I know, the correlation of anti-military=sheltered is VERY HAZY at best and it ignores many factors (you hate the American military but you LOVE the Vietnamese military and you're a citizen of Vietnam, etc).

Edited April 29, 2014 by Pisces Adonis

[Onasander]

The features you've put together to allow us to 'recognize' the diverse elements at play in the subject of the overweight armchair military enthusiast, a manchild who doesn't necessarily relate to the Vietnam Vet's opinions, or for that matter to your unspecified reports of a universally abstract entity 'soldiers' or 'army' committing random acts of malicious tragedy throughout history, and without historical context.

 

You only have to look at two former soldiers who post on this forum..... myself, a Iraq vet, and Virgil, who now runs a classic history forum..... neither of us fit the mold of the above, nor by reasonable means could be expected to understand this chubby guy who marches in parades. He is into the Voyuerism and Celebration of it, perhaps for readily identifiable reasons very apparent to a glance by a psychologist your mentioning. He may of came from a military family, or holds philosophically certain ideals, however correctly or incorrectly, as central to the perpetuation of self and community. In either case, he is obviously of little consequence, beyond inflaming a pet peeve in you.

 

Cuba needed a Army after the Spanish American war due to a variety of post independence reasons..... Spain could return, they could become vulnerable to raiders and pirates, get absorbed involuntarily into another state (America for example), as well as had on and off again civil unrest.

 

The current Cuban government line for the invasion by Fidel Castro was to overthrow American economic and cultural domination of Cuba, and that the military was largely a puppet of Cuba, was accepted enough by the Cubans, including enough defectors in the federal military, that Fidel won out. The diagnosis of some systemic effects are obvious.... the Cuban military did not believe in its mission, nor ever really bonded to the people. They existed uneasily side by side, for better or worst.

 

The end result was a dictatorship ran by a oligarchy..... Which is something Aeneas tackles from a realistic, non-philosophical position, preceding historical precedents to illuminate his positions. He doesn't give preference to kinds of government, just the advantages and pitfalls of using military solutions to types of government under a particular topological disposition.... a fortified city.

 

Your Cuba friends position is a learned response, and he holds it with some justification. Others hold the opposite, obviously, such as your fat friend, and he can claim it for equal justification..... he can be naive about the military precisely because the US military keeps foreign threats from him, so that he may develop such low outlooks, and not have to immigrate himself to another country.

 

Indeed, rape and pillaging is a recurring theme in military history..... a petite bourgeois shopkeeper loosing his possessions goes against Just War Theory if he was a neutral party, likewise needless destruction, any kind of raping, and indiscriminate killing without cause related to the justifications of leading combat operations in the first place.

 

However, soldiers hardly have a monopoly on violence. Even with nukes, modern weapons, and a few world and major regional wars in the twentieth century, I doubt soldiers too the majority of the violence pie in the 20th century, just easier to establish escape into anarchism in denouncing them than trying to grasp the phenomena of violence by its roots, in US, how we couple logic and emotion, and accept a telephony that ends in violence as a expression of gain, and a etiology focused on spite and hatred.

 

Ironically, soldiers can be a solution to this, if and when the military establishment comprehended it,and the government presiding over the military enshrined such outlooks as conditions and principles to guide military theorist and commanders.

 

Hence why we have West Point, Virginia Military Institute, and civilian organizations such as the US Institute of Peace in the US, and why even the lowest soldier is expected by congressional mandate to attend classes on The Laws of Ground Warfare annually.

 

When excess occurs in violent intention, such as needless killing beyond justification in combat operations, you have the UCMJ, the Uniform Code of Military Justice.... and largely independent military prosecutors who are notorious for going a little too far in prying into possible or gossiped breaks with just war.... I know one guy in jail for merely defending himself in jail.... but given it occurred at a politically sensitive time in politics, in jail he went.

 

No system is perfect, but the US and a great many other nations have such legal systems and war colleges designed to train and educate its leaders. As with everything, shit happens.... that's not a excuse, merely a observation, and a reasonable assumption shit would happen worst without them. But that's case by case, and each case needs debated in its own thread, which can happen here on UNRV given its a history site.

 

I never liked getting thanks or honored. The WW 2 and Korean vets like that. I shy away from it..... but I recognize the necessity of continuing the military, and keeping it bonded, and the voters feeling like they own it, and control it to a extent, and censure it. The ritual of parades is there for a cultural continuation of a necessity of perpetuating such a outlook, by means of a showy ritual. I am more than willing to let the fat man lead, twirling the baton and crying about the honor of some flag. Flags are a sign and signifier, not the thing itself..... none of the guys I know who died in Iraq died for a flag, they died because they got blown up or someone shot them. But it's proven, if not useful to the military, useful in maintaining a military that is progressively more civilized and restrained, and more self aware of where it stands in the greater scheme of humanity. It's a step in the right direction, even though it's little more than a roll of dyed nylon flapping in the wind to me personally. If I'm the only one around, I don't notice or salute it.... you only pretend to when others are watching, and its that double standard that reinforces the overall behavior to remember..... BEHAVE!

Edited April 29, 2014 by Onasander

[caldrail]

 

 

Thing is the bias they have-if a civilian is kissing up to the military to the point of obsession (having posters of the US marines on his wall, buying Airforce toys,etc) they immediately praise him as though he is mature (ignoring the fact he may be abusive to his siblings and he never been outside his hometown his whole life).

That depends on national character. In Britain such a person is suspected of being a bit odd or a bit of fantasist. In any case the servicemen tend to regard such people as targets for 'lessons', amounting to vandalism or social exclusion in most cases.

 

Yet if a storekeeper is complaining soldiers are scumbags for wrecking his store and robbing his property, soldiers attack him as being "sheltered" because he fails to appreciate the "sacrifices" the armed forces are making to defend his "freedom".

So what's new? We have the Romans writing satires on that behaviour.

 

Or what if Japanese soldier gangraped you?

Or any other nationality. The Japanese may not have done anything to discourage it in WW2 (their culture is somewhat chauvanistic despite some clear equalities the west did not have - actually they've become more chauvanistic than they were in medieval times even though their culture is highly traditional) - but the japanes were nopt unique. Russian soldiers entering German settlemnts in the late war, particularly in Berlin, were using German women as they found them (a German man protected two women in his building by showing the Russians some dead bodies whilst two ladies hid elsewhere). On a lower scale, there is always a certain amount of rape in warfare commensurate with the discipline and expectations of the soldiers. More recent examples that have reached the news recently concerned the crisis in the Balkans - the women so attacked are now seeking justice. The issue has nothing to do with being sheltered - it's being in the wrong place at the wrong time in proximity to the wrong people.

[Onasander]

I don't recall anyone from my brigade involved in a rape, officially or in the rumor mill in Iraq, but one guy did go on a rape spree just prior to deployment, he was from the Dominican Republic.... pretended to be a undercover cop and pulled women over, got out pretending to speak into a invisible mic on his shoulder, and told the women to get out. He raped them on the hood, and moved on. Last he did that night was a teenage girl, with her mother watching in the car. He wasn't armed or even big, a rather small guy. Another guy (completely unrelated) Sat in his car as his girlfriend knocked over a liquor store. Both happened right before we deployed.

 

Our unit had a very anti-rape program in Kuwait (our brigade had female soldiers in support units) and Iraq. However, about a week after getting out of the army, I was informed two guys in my unit went AWOL, a private raped his buck sargent in a argument..... the first was arrested, the latter..... well...... army told all his friends and relatives he wasn't in trouble for going AWOL..... but I suspect he still never showed up. I can't blame him.

 

Now.... you say 'soldier', but these guys would still exist with or without the army. They were everyday people sitting next to you in a restaurant. A lot of men are off balanced in the military, not because the military made them nuts or immoral, but because they were nuts to begin with, and people just didn't see the signs or know how to fix the situation before it became one. This is in a sense a failure of the military..... in not being able to diagnose and prevent such moral failures..... but is also of equal quality in existence across society..... such issues would exist with or without it.

 

It's hard as he'll to get higher ups who are not interested in the finer details of just war theory and how it applies to their position to acknowledge any role. I had a very solid background in this area before deploying..... we had some good programs, and if the program existed they extolled it, but the higher NCOs aren't exactly promoted Sargent Major and above for reasons of intuition and ability to make theory into practice.... that's more expected of officers, though it's not as bad as it used to be in older armies. I think eventually the solid division between Officer and NCO will fade..... not the functions persay in all places, but the concept of exclusive responsibilities of a general categorical nature from lowest to highest..... it's hard as fuck to get new ideas (or even really old ones) through via the conservative NCO corps, they are used to initiative being started elsewhere, and are hesitant to be the first to put two and two together. However, you can usually drop any ideas to a low ranking officer in head quarters unit and it blossoms.... we.... by we I mean I, had a very hard problem in Iraq with detainees being released to walk home minus shoes. NCO s ran the detainment center.... took a low ranking 2nd Lt. to acknowledge something was wrong..... NCO s justifying care, if they don't care, and someone lower in rank has a issue, that person is insane. Lots of little stuff like this..... my favorite was how our E-8 Sargent Major accidentally made a concentration camp in our base purely by accident for reporters to photograph....

 

We had a giant power plant on our base.... and the Soviets built it... and built a small apartment complex, a few dozen rooms, next to it. We called it the Russian village. A unit before us used it, but it was rotten and decaying by Time we took the base..... so our Sargent Major (not CSM, rank right below him) decided to get rid of the occasional vagrant on base..... over a thousand Iraqis worked in the power plant per day.... a malfunctioning plant.... and this was in the triangle of death..... I did the count a few nights in a row..... over 200 each time, sleeping in bushes or under plywood, outnumbered Iraqi offices,nor on the floor..... I told him, he said it wasn't the case. I ins insisted, and he challenged me to internet brain puzzles instead. 

 

Well, some of the people started insisting they had property rights on the base..... to which he said no, and I brought up the squatting rights issue..... Which he denied any such thing on a military base. He decided to just put roll after roll after roll of concentina wire around the Russian village to keep people out.... it was rotten but could still be used. A few other rules added, including to stay out of it.

 

Well, the ministry of electricity got the idea of letting workers overflow into the village..... no one believed me. I was till banned from going in there. So we had Iraqis jumping over rolls of bath wire..... living in there..... with no trash pick up, so garbage everywhere.... the outhouse just not doing what it was support to do, so guys just went anywhere..... and best of all, they started breaking up the wood and Palm leave woven structures that held many buildings together (ad hoc repairs) and everything began collapsing.

 

We next to never got reporters in, but one from Time Magazine got lost or something and showed up at our base with a camera in hand, wanting to go out our north Hafez which was elevated ABOVE this camp...... he went by when I was walking by him, say a bunch of small Iraqi's looking up at him, behind barb wire and trash, looking unclean and miserable..... that guy got all excited and just started taking pictures like crazy.

 

So now, historians will someday look through time magazine archives, and wonder why our base, in the triangle of death, had a concentration camp. It happened purely through thick headed action of the higher NCO mentality, and unwillingness to grasp the consequences. Multiple aspects were brought up, but all was minor seemingly, and had no interest to them..... then a reporter shows up, and it all goes to hell.

 

But that division also has its advantages. Part of  which is the capacity to train guys consistently, and be able to implement a variety of ideas to the lower ranks who wouldn't have the slightest clue how to make it happen. Sometimes it still doesn't happen.... but they did stop guys from raping women in combat.... Which is good.