Rome Total Realism Needs You!!

[ahowl11 HRTW Mod Leader]

Hello people of UNRV!

 

I am ahowl11. My name says HRTW Mod Leader but that was an old name and if I can just have it changed to ahowl11 I'd appreciate it!

 

Anyways, I am the leader of a mod called Rome Total Realism. It is a mod for the computer game, Rome: Total War.

http://www.rometotalrealism.org/

 

The old RTR teams are gone now, and a new one has arisen with me starting the RTR Project. Our mod will be on a grand scale focusing on the entire history of the Greco-Roman world from the Rise of Alexander to the Fall of Rome.

 

Right now we are only in our sixth month of development, but we already have a release out!

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?643025-RTR-Project-Imperial-Campaign-v0-5-Released!

 

Also a friend of ours has been playing it and posting his campaign to youtube

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhjRGtB_rFAygivDhEZwd-ph48Rfg3fkm

 

For our next version we are concentrating on the world of the Roman Republic and Hellenistic Kingdoms from 280 BC to the Marian Reforms. We are thinking about ending the game right before the Cimbri and Tetones made their invasion.

 

We are in need of people who know their history on this time frame! Whether it be political, military, or geographical. The map will stretch from Iberia to India, and from Scandinavia to Ethiopia. We are looking to have a very diverse world filled with troop types, cities, characters and Kingdoms.

 

Also if anyone here has 2d or 3d graphics talent, we are also in need of those skillsets!

 

Please comment below or message me if you are interested

 

regards,

 

~ahowl11

[Onasander]

Umm..... your really going to include India during in its Mauryan Imperial age?

 

I only ask, as the obvious absurdity of Chanakya's statecraft is very AI centered, and if your too realistic and by the book, it will be Marius Gaius trying to fend off buddhist-hindu armies each time. Kinda like how the Turks or Maratha empire could overrun Europe if the persians were weak.... it Just doesnt look right.

 

I wouldnt know how you would want to go about organizing the political and oligarch al factions.... they are initially city based, but can ride to regional as governors or militarily, and can out of the blue become dynastic.

 

Each city would need a potential dynastic loyalist rating for EVERY character.(how loyal will this place be if you become tyrant-emperor,and how loyal are you to the current senate, head honcho). This includes diplomats, spies, etc.

 

Major cities like Alexandria being approached, then conquered, would have to affect this.

 

Also, the solidity of cultural group feeling towards the dynasty-republic should effect your spying success. The presence of strong, non aligned oligarchial factions should make spying or sabotage harder, and cut into total economic output. You should be able to sabotage individual oligarchial monopolies however, much like a building, or offer them via diplomats or military leaders economic or property incentives to back you. However, even this should backfire..... if the incentives just make them more independent, then ha ha ha, your screwed..... your spying capacity goes up, dynastic loyalty down. The inverse, offering someone in Syria or Libya lands in Italy or France, makes them more loyal.

 

This means, every region needs conquerable, locatable estates as a aspect of DIPLOMATIC.CURRENCY. If a faction holds it, they can assign it, or exhort it. During the Marius and Sulla campaign, this should be the primary factor for civic loyalty. Marius gives it to the people, stronger dynastic loyalty. Sulla to the Nobles, stronger tax. It effects the appearance of recruitable Equites, potential for angry mobs, assassination, for Jugunther to raise a uprising, etc.

 

Last total war game on the computer i played was napoleon. Not upgrading for this game. Best of luck.

 

Oh..... regional philosophy schools, based in Rome, Alexandria, Patiliputra, Crete, Perganum, Athens..... this is necessary for character development of statesmen.... they visit, they get smarter. You piss the schools off, your regional dynastic loyalty goes down, and the particular philosophical school in the next turn turns against your overall faction in the next few turns. Diplomacy, such as ceeding a estate to most philosophy groups will work (not the Cynics).

 

How are you planning on making the counter-religious movements work post augustus? Christianity and the cult of isis was picking up steam.... had obvious effects down the road, but the romans reacted very differently.as time went on.

[ahowl11 HRTW Mod Leader]

Great response! Just an FYI this mod will be for the old RTW, not the new and horrible Rome 2.

 

I will post your thoughts and ideas in our dev forum and we will see if the game engine allows us to do any of it! We have not really entered the phase of government, schools, characters etc. Right now we are focusing on the different troop types.

 

As for India, we are playing it by ear right now.

[Onasander]

Actually, perhaps like in Total War Napoleon, with its special high detail animals like Northern Italy, you can make one for the Jugunthine War...... the campaign of holding water sources and shadowing-countervailing your opponent involves slot of terrain. It should take quite a few turns, and the Romans, outside  of local recruits from carthage, should be reliant on shipments of new troops that have to land at carriage before setting out, and the first turn they should be lethargic (heat exhaustion, takes a northern army 6 weeks to adapt, been that way since Napoleon in Egypt..... human physiology hasn't changed). This means if Juguntha is laying siege to Carthage, and you receive reinforcements in from say, Rome or Spain, low exertion level.... they become heat casualties quickly. However, say Sicily, not as much. Specialized recruiting rosters for where the units can come from will solve this. 

 

I also recommend a special campaign map, not of the countryside, but of Alexandria...... the city, with multiple turns per taking of sectors. Each battle specializes on a fight in a section of it. Same for Rome, and later Constantinople. 

 

You would basically on the Alexandria map sea to the north of the Isthmus, outlines of neighborhoods, but each neighborhood is a clickable battlefield to fight on.... in battle, the maps are much more exacting. In order to see the whole city, you have to fight a battle in each part. Hence, you can lead Ceasar's forces in capturing and burning down the warehouses for the library of Alexandria, or order your ships nearby for battle in a purely naval battle.

[ahowl11 HRTW Mod Leader]

Again great ideas, but most of them cannot be made into the game due to hardcoded limitations :/

R2 was such a dissapointment in this regard. Maybe another company will make a better game for the Roman timeframe.

 

Anyways, we are currently adding units to the game and we have started with the Camillan Romans.

 

The roster currently for Rome (280 BC - Cimbri Invasion)

 

Camillan

Accensi - Cheap and weak slinger unit

Leves - Javelinmen with no shield

Rorarii - Cheap spear unit

Hastati - No armour, javelins, spear

Principes - Heart Protector, javelins, spear

Triarii - Cuirass, hoplon, spear

Equites - No armour, spear

Equites Consulares - Cuirass, shoulder guards, shield, spear, sword

 

Polybian

Velites

Hastati - Heart Protector, Pilae, Gladius

Principes - Hear Protector, Shoulder Guards, Pilae, Gladius

Triarii - Cuiriass, scutum, spear, shoulder guards

Equites - Heart Protector, spear, sword

Equites Consulares - Cuirass, shoulder guards, shield, spear, sword

 

Allies

Pedites Extraordinarii - Javelins, Sword, Aspis, Cuirass

Extraordinarii Cavalry - Lance, Sword, Cuirass

Italian Velites (Polybian Only)

Italian Hastati (Polybian Only)

Italian Principes (Polybian Only)

Italian Triarii (Polybian Only)

Italian Equites (Polybian Only)

 

Possible Regional Troops For Italy (Not Including Liguria, Sicily, or Cisalpine Gaul)

Latium - Latin Infantry

Etruria - Etrurian Skirmishers; Etrurian Hoplites; Etrurian Ekdromoi; Etrurian Cavalry

Umbria - Umbrian Spearmen, Picentes Spearmen

Samnium - Samnite Spearmen, Samnite Javelinmen, Samnite Cavalry, Samnite Swordsman

Campania - Campanian Hoplites, Campanian Cavalry

Apulia - Apulian Infantry, Messapian Spearmen

Lucania - Lucanian Hoplites; Lucanian Javelinmen; Lucanian Cavalry; Tarentine Hoplites; Tarentine Cavalry; Tarentine Leukaspides

Brutium - Brutiian Infantry

 

Now as you can see certain regions like Picentum or Calabria are not shown. In RTW you're only allowed 200 regions so we have to make sacrifices.

Also, the Regional Units are just based off what we have seen in other mods and our research. If someone here knows troop types used by the Italians in the 3rd Century BC, please comment.

 

Also we need help with the transformation from the Camillan to Polybian armies. I know that the change spanned probably half a century but does anyone know when the exact changes occurred? I only know that the Principes stopped using the spear after the Pyrrhic wars, and that the hastati also stopped after the first punic war as both troops picked up the Gladius from Iberian troops. But when did the Triarii stop fighting in hoplite fashion? When were the leves, accensi, and rorarii dropped for the Velites?

 

Also, through some research and help from a history buff we may have came to a conclusion that Mail was not used in the Roman army until around the Marius reforms. If they were they were rare as they took forever to make.

 

Any thoughts on this before we proceed? Especially regarding the transformation of the army and the troop types of Italy

 

Thanks!

[caldrail]

You will also need to consider recruitment of slaves as soldiers. It was very rare for this to happen, but happen it did. They would be a class of low capability soldier set apart from regular legionaries. Not something you could do ordinarily, but if conditions are right... Also, around this period came the first instances of Roman troops being given extra sword training from gladiators, which might be a means of improving your troops, which of course would cost you.

[ahowl11 HRTW Mod Leader]

We have a Peasant unit that could represent Slave revolts etc.

Also we can add a bonus of some sort to a barracks or something describing the training. Good ideas!

[Onasander]

I don't recall any slave 'units', but outside of gladiators being drafted in.... I can't see the Romans making such a pathetic unit akin to the game's peasant units.... like, they had more self respect than to draft a bunch of barely armed pussies to fight. 

 

The slave units, if they existed, were barely trusted yet highly motivated.

[ahowl11 HRTW Mod Leader]

Well they may not have had slave units but the Accensi, Rorarii, and Leves were the poorest of the poor, so close.

[caldrail]

There were instances in emergencies when slaves were manumitted, armed, and formed as a sort of auxillary unit. It was something the Romans regarded as undesirable but it still happened in rare instances. There's a mention of the practice during the Punic Wars. Augustus raised some units in that way. One unit of gladiators raised to defend Rome in the civil wars of 69ad was abandoned and possibly betrayed by officers outraged that they had been given slaves to command.

[ahowl11 HRTW Mod Leader]

We have decided to exclude the Camillan unit roster due to game limitations and historical ambiguity.

[ahowl11 HRTW Mod Leader]

Mod is still going. We started from scratch and have produced a wonderful map (same dimensions). If anyone is interested let me know and I will continue to post updates here. Sorry for the absence by the way. I left after the forums went down.

[Onasander]

I had gotten another copy of Medieval 2 a month or so back, and already beat every campaign.

 

I gotta admit, there is a Hugh discrepancy between historic military tactics, and what I actually do to win. I'm very disappointed in the AI, it can't do basic flanks. They clusterfuck in hugh columns, converging on a single point, bringing their units together, and it's a pain in the ass to get them to march in parallel columns so one unit can collide and the one parallel can flank. They get.... retardedly slow when trying to do this, and my Calvary insists on moving at a snail's pace unless it is allowed to plow face first into likes.... instead of the side or rear.

 

It's a remarkably simple operation, and they consistently screw up. I gotta oblique attack way out of the side from an absurd tangent to pull it off.

 

So I've more or less said fuck it, and just run armies down with forces almost completely composed of heavy Calvary acting in tandem with two light infantry armies, using night attacks and buying mercenaries to replenish ranks, and choose campaign corridors that allow for logistical reinforcement quick enough to fill the void in my rear, and equip secondary forces to follow.

 

It's sad, but I get more realistic flanking on the turn based campaign map than in the battles.

 

I really do wish there was a function for Pugnae Simularcrum..... mock battles, where you could take unit types at tech levels you currently possess, and practice maneuvers outside the campaign map. If you achieve the success in showing how to do a field maneuver with a particular kind of unit against a mock unit, those two units remember how to do it as long as that unit type exists. Examples, close quarter flanking, or using infantry in the rear in support of Calvary. If you successfully pull this off, the AI will merit all units of this type with this AI upgrade.

 

I know what you'll say..... AI isn't designed to be like that, or software limitations, but I don't believe so. There are options for individual historic battles. This can be adjusted to register when a unit achieves a certain historic success in fending off or nearly using a historic technique (such as using Infantry and Calvary in parallel to fend off a enemy's Calvary attack in the rear). If the AI detects a enemy unit flanking and hitting the rear, and being sent fleeing, in the normal campaigns, when your Calvary and infantry are near one another, they get the special ability to merge together as on unit, same speed, mutually supporting one another. Also the ability to break off and form two units.

 

Or if you train them to send a infantry unit up a steep hill to take a pass, they be home winded.... if your general rides behind them blowing his horn like crazy to spur them, they should be able in normal battles as light infantry to rapidly surmount hills and mountain passes in order to hold the pass.

 

Essentially, you would update the special abilities per unit, upon historical standards Romans were known to train their forces, from Scipio to Heraclius. If you achieve a good enough standard in these training matches (Roman vs Roman) your AI roster for that kind of unit gets upgraded, which I assume means from a programmers' perspective, the old kind of unit is switched out for the new, but would look similar to players. After the mock battle, they go back into the campaign maps, and if they succeeded, they get smarter units.

 

Also, add as a special character, such as priest or diplomat, a gladiator or another kind of veteran trainer to join up with armies to make them smarter. I don't mean as part of a characteristic of a general, but as a actual character trained from its own facility, that unlocks these mock battle possibilities. In Medieval 2, There are options for daily, monthly, yearly races..... Romans used a rather lame synchronized dance of Calvary and infantry forces for display in festivals to show off their

Coordination and prepare them for battle maneuvers. This should be a mandatory option in large cities, in doing so increases public order, and lowers maintenance costs, and upgrades after several peaceful cycles units armor.... Romans liked the dance of the bumblebee sort of thing.

[Viggen]

..thanks ahowl11 for keeping us up to date

[ahowl11 HRTW Mod Leader]

I feel like your ideas should be put together so we can make an entirely new game lol