How Roman was Dumnonia

[Viggen]

from Wikipedia: Dumnonia is the Latinised name for the Brythonic kingdom in sub-Roman Britain between the late 4th and late 8th centuries, in the more westerly parts of South West England. It was centred in the area later called Devon, but included Cornwall and parts of Somerset and Dorset, with its eastern boundary changing over time as the gradual westward expansion of the neighbouring Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex ate away at its territory.

 

...so in 700AD i assume they felt very different to the Anglo/Saxons, but did they had any Roman traditions left?

[sonic]

From the little I can remember (my studies specifically on late Roman Britain were a long time ago!) the south-western extremities of England were never really settled by 'Romans' and so were not heavily influenced by Romans and probably failed to adopt any Roman traditions.  I think it possible that in the last 20 years or so archaeology has found evidence to modify this view, but if so I am unaware of it.  Any takers?

[caldrail]

There appears to have been some accord with the Romans. They had some minor presence in the area, as they tended to in frontier regions, but relations were amicable and I suspect based on trade and good behaviour. The archaeology I've seen tends to support this - they retained iron age lifestyles well in the sub-Roman period (Time Team dug a coastal site and found roundhouses dated long adfter the Romans had left)

[Onasander]

I am reading 'The Stoic Concept of the City' and the second part opens up with a discussion of Dio visiting formerly Greek Cities on his way to Sythia conquered occasionally by the Gatae.

 

Greek survivors would flee, barbarians break everything Protestant Style, then a generation or two later the Greek survivors would retake the ruins, poorly fix the fortifications, and only partially reoccupy the city.

 

They tended to regress apparently in Greek Customs, but were very self conscious of it. Some could still quote Plato, but very little else. They had beards and long hair like the greeks, but wore barbarian clothes.

 

 

Only thing that kept them turning greek was the incentive for sea trade along the greek Black Sea, and a urge to fit in.

 

Now..... western empire collapse, all trade is by barbarians.... you travel for months and months and everyone is barbarian, for several generations, how long is this going to hold out pragmatically.

 

I suspect Plato and Aristotle was quoted to utter corruption, literacy .... already bad, went to hell, useless architecture went byebye, but the idea of Rome and Romaness likely stuck around, likely became ironically more acceptable as a sort of golden age to people whose ancestors were dead set against Rome originally.

[caldrail]

The collapse of the western empire did not involve amnesia. Barbarian or not, the cultural identity of the Romans survived intact. Some tribes kept roman titles and offices even though their true context had long since vanished. Further, the spread of the post Roman church, especially with regard to the rivalry with irish christianity, maintained links with the Roman past.

[sonic]

The collapse of the western empire did not involve amnesia. Barbarian or not, the cultural identity of the Romans survived intact. Some tribes kept roman titles and offices even though their true context had long since vanished. Further, the spread of the post Roman church, especially with regard to the rivalry with irish christianity, maintained links with the Roman past.

The question is, did this affect the whole of Dumnonia in the south west, or just the elite?  Or just the poor?

[caldrail]

 The elite tended to be close to the Roman road system, even with country estates. The roads did not get very far into that region.Why that should be isn't known to me. I gather that the moorland was already a reality by that time (the forests having been largely cut down) and the terrain in many parts of Dumnonia either wetland or bleak grassy wilderness. The wealth of the region was coastal, and transport easier by sea.

 

Regarding religion, I don't know the extent to which irish christianity supplanted native or Roman paganism, or indeed, Roman christianity. The campaigns of Ine and Ecgbert in the later Dark Age do suggest a strong affinity with the welsh - it's the same peoples inhabiting the region according to the chroniclers, and the division between irish and Roman christianity was quite close to saxon or Romano-British domination. However, a check on the wiki page reveals a more complex situation, with various tribes of mixed origin.

 

You might wish to consider this page...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Cornwall

[caldrail]

I happened to see a map the other day showing the distribution of villa sites in Roman Britain. A bit outdated, it was originaly drawn in 1976, but the spread was revealing nonetheless. Southern England was plastered with them in nucleated groups, aside from much of Kent for some reason. A thinner spread followed the course of the M1. A few were scattered about south Wales or the Borders, but Dumnonia>? Just one, right down the end of the peninsula. Quite a holiday retreat then...