Scottish Independence

[guy]

I guess Scotland is voting later this year for independence. What a silly vote.

 

Scotland is almost a second world nation that would sink back into poverty if they achieved their complete independence. (I blame the loss of Scotland's intellectual drive and innovation, as well as their lack of motivation for economic growth, on Scotland's allowing itself to be seduced by the baubles and trinkets from London...but that's another story.) Long past are the intellectual giants of the Scottish enlightenment such as Adam Smith (economics), David Hume (philosphy), James Hutton (founder of modern geology), Adam Ferguson (founder of sociology), James Watt (Mr. steam engine), etc.

 

The greatness of the medical school in Edinburgh (where the American signer of the Declaration of Independence Benjamin Rush went for medical education) is long forgotten, only to be replaced by physicians who now try to blow up an airport.

 

I would vote "yes" on Britain, but "no" on the monarchy. Of course, this opinion has made me the target of a lot of hate on a couple web sites.

 

Here's a video from the WSJ from someone promoting Scottish independence. Good grief.

 

http://live.wsj.com/video/opinion-alan-cumming-free-the-scots/29527D4C-72B1-42FD-8647-E5031A3CFA04.html#!29527D4C-72B1-42FD-8647-E5031A3CFA04

 

(Click on the link "Alan Cumming: Free the Scots" to see the video)

 

Sorry for my insane rant, but there's a reason why my relatives left Scotland more than 200 years ago.

 

 

guy also known as gaius

Edited March 22, 2014 by guy

[caldrail]

Scottish independence is an emotive issue, but an odd one, since they are effectively asking to withdraw from the very same United kingdom that their own monarchs set up. Besides nationalism and antipathy toward the English (it does exist, although not a huge issue), the re-emergence of regional identity confirms what I always said about it. Encouraged by the creation of regional government by Tony Blair's Cool Britannia, and the existence of nationalist politicians wanting to secure their names in the history books, it would be very easy to forget the real-world issues regarding the move toward independence, but happily I note that the Scots appear to be quite sane about this in general, and raise concerns on all kinds of fronts. Is Alex Salmond being naive or opportunistic? Is an independent Scotland a folly or a brave new world? Truth is I don't know. Certainly Scotland will be creating a lot of problems for itself that don't currently exist, but ultimately it's up to the Scottish.

[Viggen]

...if (to give some of many examples) estonia, latvia and slovenia manage on their own, i am pretty sure Scotland would too...

[guy]

Do we have any regulars from Scotland on this site?

 

 

guy also known as gaius

[guy]

The race is tightening up:

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/referendum-race-on-knife-edge-as-no-support-slides-1-3382125

 

 

guy also known as gaius

[kodiakblair]

I really didn't think I'd be talking about Indepenence on a Roman History site, certainly not my first post. 

 

Firstly Caldrail the Union of the Crowns was one King two countrys. The creation of the United Kingdom was

another issue entirely, closure of the Scottish Parliament and all power dissolved to London.

 

It is a very emotive issue, myself I've been waiting since 1979 for this chance. In 1979 the people of Scotland

were asked about Devolution, the majority voted for it but the Non votes were added to the No votes so the

bill was defeated.It was said at the time that the Scottish Office would get more power what we got was 18 yrs

of Tory Government.

 

This is the key issue with Scotland never having a Conservative following, the majority of MPs and indeed 

Councils are Labour. The SNP coming to power as a backlash against Tony Blair's " New Labour ".

New Labour being a re-branded opposition party quite removed from the traditional Labour Party.

 

So there we have things as they stand Scotland who don't elect Conservatives being governed by them.

 

The points raised about Scotlands lauded past in the first post don't really stand, The Enlightenment isn't

taught in Scottish Schools, we get the Romans, Bannockburn then jump to the Industrial Revolution.

 

One thing that bothers me is for years the argument was Scotland wasn't economically stable and relied

on England now if this is true why would an England reeling with debt keep this drain of resources afloat.

 

And why would the Conservatives want a NO vote when if you remove the Scottish MPs at Westminster

they would have a majority of 19 clear, no Con/Lib just absolute power.Why do they want to keep this

Millstone that is Scotland and deny themselves power.

 

Unless like a lot of things being said they're Lies.There's a huge amount of mis-information going on.

 

British politics are too London centric and now Britain is feeling the brunt of they're mis-management

I for one feel it's time to stand on our own feet. 

[caldrail]

London is the capital of the United Kingdom, so London-centric would appear to be the point. Whether that allows enough representation in our British provinces is another. It is an irony that Scotland now wants independence from the United Kingdom it was instrumental in setting up, but then, there are scottish islands talking about independence from Scotland should they succeeed in seccession.

 

What this illustrates is a common problem with aggragted nations like the United Kingdom - once the overall rule weakens, regional identities emerge. The same problem occurred in the Balkans, the same problem is happening in Veneto and Sardinia, and with Russian assistance, the Ukraine, along with other problem areas around the globe.

 

The problem is achieving a balance agreeable to all parties. When the Labour Government set up regional assemblies in Britain, it gave our regions not only a measure of independnece, but also the confidence to demand more. It boils down to one thing which we can see repeated throughout human history not least in that of the Roman Empire - if the central power does not command loyalty and respect, the provinces revert to local concerns. The United Kingdom has inadvertantly reached a point where the failings of the London-centric government and the relaxation of regional control have encouraged those voices that want to found independent states based ostensibly around local identities that would support it, but with the immediate aim of political success and a place in the history books. Is this indpenednece movement really for Scotland and its people, or simply a means by which individuals achieve success in their lifetimes? The difference is sometimes very narrow.

[kodiakblair]

" Is this indpenednece movement really for Scotland and its people, or simply a means by which individuals achieve success in their lifetimes? The difference is sometimes very narrow. "

 

Some may feel this is just about MR Salmond. It's not remember Holyrood will have to be elected again.

While Mr Salmond might be the man in charge before Independence whether  he would be elected 1st

PM of Scotland for over 300 years remains to be seen.

 

There are many like myself, brought up in Labour strongholds who view Independence as the only way

to remove New Labour and it's taint from Scottish politics and see a return to it's traditional values.

Tony Blair and Ed Milliband have no place along side John Smith,Jimmy Reid and Denis Canavan.

 

Few up here have any faith in Westminster though I believe that holds true for parts of England too.

The lack of action shown to SW England earlier this year only adds fuel to the fire.

 

I really don't want to go much further with this topic, I only answered because #4 asked  for a Scots view

and Viggen emailed to say I'd not posted yet despite joining two years back. I've made sure not to push any

buttons, hope you appreciate this as the topic can quickly become inflamed.

[Viggen]

London is the capital of the United Kingdom, so London-centric would appear to be the point.

 

 

...although for historical reasons, but nevertheless, Germany is not "capital" centric... there is a financial hub called Frankfurt, there is the supreme court in Karlsruhe, there is the media center in Hamburg and Cologne, (never mind the beer hub in Munich )

 

...England lost the US, India, the caribean, african colonies, Ireland and so on,

guess what, they still doing fine, so not sure why Scotland leaving would make any difference...

 

p.s. btw kodiakblair, you reached now your two posts, so from now on, no more approval from a mod needed

[sonic]

"Few up here have any faith in Westminster though I believe that holds true for parts of England too.

The lack of action shown to SW England earlier this year only adds fuel to the fire."

Large parts of England think that Westminster is a waste of taxpayers money, as it's filled with upper-class twits who all look and sound the same and have no idea about how the vast majority of the country lives.  This can be summed up by an advert I once saw advertising a new shop for a company "Oop Norf" (their spelling).  In Birmingham.  To all non-British readers, Birmingham is in the Midlands and is nowhere near the 'Norf'.

[caldrail]

Those sorts of attitudes tend to be cyclical. It either eventually results in civil disorder and a much harder line government (or in worse cases, a new government altogether), or is pacified by the emergence of a charismatic or messianic individual. If you're right (and I'm not convinced the situation is currently any worse than it was back in the 70's with three day working weeks, interminable strikes, and a very poor level of national morale), then a time has come for something to change. That doesn't mean Westminister isirrelevant or obselete - remember that tradition is hugely important to people whether they realise it or not, and that radical changes in government often result in worse conditions as those taking the lead are more concerned with their own success than that of their people - as we saw in UKraine recently.

[Onasander]

So.... can this new Scotland be invaded by, say, Ireland? I would rather like to see a war skirting around Northern Ireland's shared waters, while the two republics launch Coast Guard and later Kayak/Rowboat raids on each other in kilts.

 

Not really much of a reason to have a independent Ireland and Scotland outside of the comedic value of such a haphazard war.

 

The Principality of Sealand can get involved too, have a cutlass battle on its battery deck.

 

After seeing Cloud Atlas, I support any effort to subjugate the Scots to British rule.... their little pubfight towards independence lead to the death of planet earth somehow.... Tom Hanks barely survived hanging off a cliff as a casual side effect of it. I say, keep them in chains.