Ancient Archers Reassessed

[guy]

I rarely venue into this neighborhood of UNRV. My military knowledge is limited. I would, however, like some insightful opinions on this subject.

 

At another site, this video created quite a controversy:

 

 

 

The argument seems to go that Ancient archers potentially could have been a more potent force than now recognized.

 

I don't know about this. It seems to me that one thousand pila simultaneously launched by experienced Roman legionnaires would be more devastating than several thousand pesky arrows. The major exception, I feel, would have been the treacherous Hunnic horsemen with their unique skills with the composite bow.

 

A supporting fact for the potential of archers in the Ancient world would be the devastation caused at Carrhae from the Parthian archers, destroying Crassus and his legions. I would counter that there were many other variables involved in that fight, more than just archers versus ground troops.

 

Opinions?

 

guy also known as gaius

Edited January 9, 2021 by guy

[Onasander]

I cant see any video.

 

Depends on strategic configuration on the macro-level of the formations of the two sides, tempo, moral, and objectives, and raw capacity to assert and resist. Terrain, weather, and how relative either side is in terms of isolation and support.

 

If the skill level of the archers are high, you simply.put, do not want to be on the receiving in. Same for the pilus. Archers are better at sustained, targeted bombardment. It can thin the flanks or rear, run havoc on communications, and wound horses. My ideal use would be in prepared positions for ambush and scout.

 

Launching spears are best with a height advantage, or just before you close for combat. In theory, weigh down your shield or penetrate your armor. Maybe. Damn good tool to thwart calvary with as a generic spear.

 

I dont see why archers couldnt carry both, but I would prefer archers to carry stakes for defence, and a selection of arrows. The infantry if anything should carry extra pilus and even a few extra arrows to deposit on the sides and rear of formations so archers have a continuous supply.

 

I can't begin to tell you how nice it would be for the front line troops to have archer support nearby, preferably the guy behind you. The guy behind you tossing his bow to the next gut behind him, take a shot if a opening happens, trade the bow back, step up to the front and fight, etc.

 

I simply put would want maximum force streamlined along my frontline, putting the skills of several on one opponent.

 

Remember, archers=more shots. Throwing spears are large and heavy.

[caldrail]

Archery was a very effective form of tactical asset in ancient times. However archers rarely have any adequate defense other than riding on a horse, which required additional skill. The Romans did evolve an armoured mounted archer in the late empire which saw limited use.

 

Finding archers was another matter of course. Unlike certain medieval kingdoms, there was no social requirement for people to practice the skills necessary that I'm aware of.

Edited November 4, 2013 by caldrail

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

Many different points come into play here : 

 

- cultural vision of archery : it is well known that the Greeks had an ambivalent view of archery (Paris, master archer, is both despised and admired; Greek battlefield seem almost bereft of archers in the classical period, but we hear of Cretan archers hired as mercenaries and recognised for their skill, etc...)

- type of bow : no two bows are the same, and you have many ways to build them which require different and specific skill sets : medieval british long bows are not the straight short bow and even less the doubly curved bow, and composite bows whatever the shape avec different characteristics from single piece-body bows

- type of use : mobile fight (then on horse), set battles (think Agincourt), defense of a fortified position, ... 

- type of arrow head : not every head is efficient in every situation

 

So the lethality of archery can vary a lot between cultures. I would say, based on what I've read and seen, that ancient mediterannean civilisations did not have especially efficient bow-technologies, to the countrary of the steppe and oriental cultures. A study of the causes of that fact would be interesting. 

[guy]

For those who are unable to see the video, go to Youtube and insert "Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery." 

The Danish archer Lars Andersen is shown with his impressive research.

 

The archer has incredible speed, but he is shooting rather lightweight arrows. I doubt they would penetrate standard armour and they probably won't usually penetrate chainmail, either (despite the video's claims). See 3:30 of video.

 

 

 

guy also known as gaius

Edited August 5, 2014 by guy

[Onasander]

Il check it out....

 

I used to hang out at the archery range in Golden Gate Park..... the mongolian bows take more time and experience, but the best shot with them was a female. There is also a guy who spends all his time there addicted to longbows.

 

They shot at the same distances, same targets. Everything I saw could seriously F you up, and wouldnt go for a stroll down range taunting people just because I might have chainmail on.

 

And the bow wasnt a alien technology, Romans had many who were into hunting.

 

The Romans were hicks. Yes, they had civilization and technology, but their tablets ios was WAX v.1.0..... you look at the diversity of back wood trailer trash, slack jaw yokels today and you have your average, military recruitable Roman.

 

Slingers, rock throwing, knive throwing, etc, this is the sort of stuff every legionaire would of played around with since a kid. If archers were kept in thsthesame camps, they would of intermingled and cross trained unofficially from time to time. I was never a 11C, a mortatist, but I comprehend roughly how to do the job, from handing out in the mortar pit. Everyone worked together, the infantry even carried shells for them.

 

Dont get stuck on categories that keeps you inflexible. On one hand, there is a clear need for specialization and task specific, elite or general units. Dont think for a second a trained roman infantry soldier wouldnt be able to grasp the importance of other technologies, fighting styles, or tactics they would come across, and wouldnt screw around with it on the side as some good old boys having fun.

I kept a slingshot on me whenever I took the humvee out in Iraq. Good against dogs and kids who like to throw rocks. Bad if your gunner is bored and wants to target traffic.

[Virgil61]

A supporting fact for the potential of archers in the Ancient world would be the devastation caused at Carrhae from the Parthian archers, destroying Crassus and his legions. I would counter that there were many other variables involved in that fight, more than just archers versus ground troops.

 

Opinions?

 

guy also known as gaius

 

 

I think you're right that there were a chain of decisions which Crassus is mostly to blame for but I think that ultimately his lack of a sufficient number of missiles w/distance to counter the Parthians was the single fatal mistake [he had some minimal number of archers if I remember correctly]. Over a century later the Roman governor Arrian [of the 'Campaigns of Alexander' fame] made a list of units to deploy to counteract a similarly equipped enemy (the Alans) in his area of operations. His missile mix--archers mounted and unmounted--was far more robust.

 

 

I kept a slingshot on me whenever I took the humvee out in Iraq. Good against dogs and kids who like to throw rocks. Bad if your gunner is bored and wants to target traffic.

 

What's up Onasander? Are you still in or did you get out? I used to have a slingshot on Bragg & when we were in the field I'd mow down racoons at night. They'd keep coming back, pretty tough animals. Remember that damn village on the Iraq side of the Kuwait-Iraq border? One time we came to a halt and one of those snot-nosed kids reached into my commanders humvee and took one of his bags. We ended up chasing that little **** until he gave it back. Wish I'd have had a slingshot.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Virgil61

[Onasander]

I bought my slingshot in a hadji shop...... actually I bought every weapon they had. It surprised me one night I was fiddling with my battle axe, and a flame popped from the top, turns out it was a built in lighter I never knew was there.

 

No, got out in 2008, I was way to injured to stay in. Being injured and not being able to get help because the Command Sargeant Major needed his injured roster to go down is going to piss you off alot. I was pissed, but didnt get the worst end of the stick, a buck sargeant hhad to wait till he went on leave to get his shrapnel in his chest removed, lost a lung and 80 percent of his heart lining, was declared AWOL for not being legally allowed to fly back to kuwait one week after open heart surgery.

 

The poor guy was told by our PA is was just anxiety, even after he was diagnosed by the civilians. He was denied a purple heart, even when he brought his case before the best ranger CSM..... and last I saw him he was mopping floors..... I was in a similar position, but not as messed up physically. I just sat quiet till they let me out, and happily watched as my 8 year mark passed. Im over 28 too now, so it would be difficult to even draft me. Im not going back in for nothing. Took me 5 years just to walk normal again and run on the eliptical for a hour.

 

Im more into philosophy now. Also, have a unsurprising grudge against socialized medicine.

[Virgil61]

Im more into philosophy now. Also, have a unsurprising grudge against socialized medicine.

 

Funny my experience with socialized medicine--the VA hospital system in Seattle--has been the opposite; probably the best care I've ever received far better than Kaiser. The docs at Kaiser were the worst & seemed to be asleep on the job, at the VA clinic I go to everyone seems to give a damn. But being held over while in the Army on a medical, that would suck big time.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Virgil61

[Onasander]

I was nominated for med boards three times, CSM stopped it and others because we didnt have enough to deploy legally. I was one week away from my medboard.

 

Yes, Seattle has the best. Hawaii the worst, it should be criminally investigated for the heavy suicide rate at the US Vet facility they drop anyone with issues off in. They have barracks in Barbers Point, and they run it under very disturbing conditions. My main philosophical background is Cynicism, and spent alot of time bumbing it up in the mountains in Oahu, hiking, building my legs back. I kept finding guys clearly ex military, looking like infantry, sleeping homeless on the street when the woodline was only 1-2 miles away. But they would dissappear out of the blue after spending just a few weeks on the street. I found out the VA kept referring them to US Vets, US Vets got money from the VA, seemed legit.

 

Then I heard of a death. Figured they happen sometimes. I took a job as security, then after that selling vaccuums door to door, quite content sleeping on a seawall, working 12 hour days. Was in a elderly couples apartment, and they found out I was from 4-25, their son was 3-25, but got out. Was at the barbers point for being unemployed. I saw them again later, son was dead.

 

Looked into it, quite a few suicides. I signed up, easily qualifying as a homeless vet. I didn't have a drug issue, and was told I could just stay in the barracks and apply for jobs, for up to a year. I was okay with that. Nothing seemed off, your standard korean war barracks, everything brick or concrete.

 

Anyway, I found out I wasnt permitted to apply for work, had to take a month of classes, that had to do with literally nothing. I kept pressing, neither I nor the supposed Samoan Ranger could figure out why we were waisting our time with the stuff, instead of just being allowed to put applications out. She finally admitted to this bell curve, where 20 percent were to troubled to work, 20 percent didn't neetneedthe program, and the remaining 60 percent could only get employment if they passed. So we had to wait, and found out it was really 6 weeks training to put out applications.

 

I was about ready to skip out of that place then, as I couldn't find evidence of people dying, maltreatment, nor even job access. I left that class, and was getting to sneak off two blocks away to the store (illegal to do by the rules), when I came across the first suicide there.

 

That 60 percent success rate, what happened to them? They get locked away in other barracks, paying a hundred bucks a month, under very heavy restrictions, including no visits by women in a apartment they pay rent for. Many got part time, min wage employment. They couldnt find a way out, and for many it seemed like a cursed punishment. Two more people committed suicide in two weeks, which was the max I could stand that place. The chance of being allowed off barracks to put in job applications was a month away, with only a promise of taking a head first dive off a three story building if I succeeded.

 

I still had the honolulu philosophy group, which I founded 6 months earlier going as a bully pulpit, as well as some political contacts I gained from it, but the only thing the news was saying is the VA was underfunded, and how Obama was going to expand and fund it. I tried a few public opinion tests, people just assumed it was PSTD suicides. Problem is, only a very select minority were ever in combat, being random services, usually in peacetime. Secondly, others already tried.

 

I didn't know then, and still don't know. I have no idea cracked their heads open taking the great leap foreward. I was pretty pissed with every aspect of Hawaii at that time. Was split between taking a pirate kayak from under the underpass (there is like, 7 pirates thrre, raiding docked ships for stuff) and paddling the islands, or just leaving, and try to build a ultraviolet camera back east, so I left.

 

I saw more guys die in Hawaii than in Iraq. Its deeply disturbing. I never tried to get any of my injuries rated for disability. I know the seattle is indeed the best, but I simply put don't want anything to do with it.

 

I hate how easily it is exploited, and how these parasitic mills can so cheaply toss mens lives away for profit.

[Virgil61]

 

I saw more guys die in Hawaii than in Iraq. Its deeply disturbing. I never tried to get any of my injuries rated for disability. I know the seattle is indeed the best, but I simply put don't want anything to do with it.

 

I hate how easily it is exploited, and how these parasitic mills can so cheaply toss mens lives away for profit.

 

It sounds like you really need to get a VA disability rating claim in, screw the Army & their bs. The VA isn't perfect--the benefits board takes forever, they really try to weed out the undeserving but I think go too far--but once it makes a decision most veterans I know who deserve it get a decent claim. It ain't a hand-out it's well deserved compensation for injures suffered.

 

We lost four during my last deployment to Iraq but have lost more to suicides in the last few years. A good friend of mine committed suicide two months ago, he'd just got out. He was a hell of a 1st SGT and mentor to a lot of people. My ex-BN CDR became a civilian & killed himself 6 months ago. That's just the leadership! There's several others who've done the same from 4th Group. I never imagined I'd see anything like this to be honest. They've burned people out with multiple deployments then sent them back to the civilian world and people are having trouble fitting back in.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Virgil61

[Onasander]

Army is still pushing the Kiersey 4 type topology last I checked. It would be alot better if they focused on establishing a few primary feedback loops in the brain based on the crainial nerves, and focused on gow rewards and punishments are processed from the system.

 

I know enough about how the wiring of the brain worked to avoid most issues. I never really got PTSD for that reason, knew how the feedback in the loops worked. I had insomnia and depression cycles before I deployed, were unconscious and based in the thalamus, so no amount of psychotherapy could help, just medication. Only reason I went.

 

Im not interested in the money. I need money, but I will work for it. I was always very inventive, nature made me so with a design, I shouldnt let God down by taking the easy handout if figuring out how to make it work otherwise can make me independent, opening up solutions to solving ideas I never pondered before. Im accepting of the hardship on me as a civic duty. I just cant stand to see others suffer.

 

My roommate right before I left the army swallowed 54 synthetic morphine pills. I saved him. Left not knowing how it ended. I tried real hard begging command to jail him to give him a chance to detox, snap out of it and live. I feel disgusted.... I may have just tormented him in his last days. I hate not having the solutions. I would give my freedom and every last scrap of dignity I have to reverse one of these cases. Nothing hits me harder. It feels like its a failure on my part for not knowing enough to figure it out, and have spent years studying each mistake.

 

Im too weirded out by the idea of just googling his name. If he is dead. Or worst, alive and lived a worthless, or criminal existence. He was hopped up on some weird stuff. Hard to judge my convictions of the value of each life on him.

[Virgil61]

 

Im not interested in the money. I need money, but I will work for it. I was always very inventive, nature made me so with a design, I shouldnt let God down by taking the easy handout if figuring out how to make it work otherwise can make me independent, opening up solutions to solving ideas I never pondered before. Im accepting of the hardship on me as a civic duty. I just cant stand to see others suffer.

 

My opinion? Screw the 'civic duty'. You performed above and beyond 'civic duty' when you deployed, a hell of a lot more 'civic duty' than the typical chickenhawk flag-waving stayed at home types will ever do in their lives. It's not only about the money, don't take that if you don't want it, it is about the medical available; that includes pharma which is really costly. I'm lucky financially but most veterans aren't & that's a lot of why the VA healthcare system is there.

 

It's about the nation paying it's debt to combat veterans. Access to VA programs and all is also a part of the deal when a soldier signs up just like education benefits etc.

 

Do what you'd like of course we all follow our own star but from my pov I'd say you shouldn't allow them--the rest of the country--to get away as freeloaders regarding your work/sacrifice/efforts/whatever.

[Onasander]

If I rest on my laurels, I loose the best part of me. I am the man looking foreward, making do in present circumstances, unfolding potential and realization.

 

If I had chunks of me blown off, or bullets lodged throughout, debilitating me, I would consider it. In many ways I felt like the Jew from Candide, tossed off the shitheap. I had delusions of grandure in my entitlements and rights, and my worth to society. It's a fantasy a lucky few get to fully experience, a easy life and a fulfilling death. I've seen too much evidence the end result is we all get thrown down that dunghill multiple times in our lives.

 

I strive neither for utopia, socialism, a golden age, or to indulge in the impulse to poorly understood grudges, rights, or impulses. My desire is to assert the best in me, condition myself to the cruelty of human existence, and problem solve within it from direct experience, inventiveness, and bias to distrust and eliminate what causes the most pain and disabilities to the average man. Finding easy shelter in rights or unearned finance isn't going to solve it. Problem solving, by striking and uprooting the roots of the problem will, to borrow a analogy from Chanakya.

 

If I was once willing to die for a cause before, why not suffer a little now to grow and realise my own now?

[Ovidius Naso]

Many different points come into play here : 

 

- cultural vision of archery : it is well known that the Greeks had an ambivalent view of archery (Paris, master archer, is both despised and admired; Greek battlefield seem almost bereft of archers in the classical period, but we hear of Cretan archers hired as mercenaries and recognised for their skill, etc...)

- type of bow : no two bows are the same, and you have many ways to build them which require different and specific skill sets : medieval british long bows are not the straight short bow and even less the doubly curved bow, and composite bows whatever the shape avec different characteristics from single piece-body bows

- type of use : mobile fight (then on horse), set battles (think Agincourt), defense of a fortified position, ... 

- type of arrow head : not every head is efficient in every situation

 

So the lethality of archery can vary a lot between cultures. I would say, based on what I've read and seen, that ancient mediterannean civilisations did not have especially efficient bow-technologies, to the countrary of the steppe and oriental cultures. A study of the causes of that fact would be interesting. 

That point about Paris is good. You might say the same about Odysseus. But what about Philoctetes and Hercules who's bow Philoctetes inherited? Then there is also Teucer who is nothing but admired in the Iliad, and although archery comes almost last in Book XXIII, the funeral games, the javelin throw is the next and final competition and I wouldn't say that it is despised.