Tiberius as a swell guy?

[Onasander]

Claudius was worst than Tiberius supposedly was.... however, was born into a imperial philosophy that was nearly puritanical.

 

Its generally assumed Claude learned his bad ways from his imperial apprenticeship under Tiberius.

 

However, all the reasons both of us suggested points to this being a politically motivated rumor mill, designed to wound Tiberius. He knew, for example, Herpes was spread via kissing, hence his laws discouraging kissing during festivals. Such a guy likely wouldnt have orgies. Then again....

[Thurinius]

I wonder if your thinking of Caligula, he certainly was groomed by Tiberius as successor and spent time with him on Capri where he supposedly learnt his cruel ways.

But Claudius certainly bad for sexual misconduct though the only emperor to produce the statutory three kids (by different wives but hey)

[Onasander]

I was thinking Caligula.... thanks for the catch..... 

[caldrail]

 

 

Not convinced he was a pervert. These accusations only surface when he retires to Capri, so No direct eye witnesses.

Plenty of potential witnesses. Slaves and nymphs for a start, not to mention wide eyed visitors to dinner parties. Since Tiberius was reputedly fond of focing men to drink excessively then tying their urinary tract shut to cause excruciating discomfort when the fluid wanted to exit the system, we can only assume that there were victims of that practice present also, as well as guards to hold the victims down.

[Thurinius]

All unnamed witnesses, no named lovers unlike say Caligula whom Suetonius describes as being the lover of mnester and Marcus Lepidus.

Nero's named lovers including sporus and doryphorus.

Galba's male lover icelus, etc etc.

That's what makes me doubt the tales.

[Onasander]

So.... logically, who in Rome would most benefit from this conspiracy to make Tiberius look bad, or was it just a case of a historical meme so awesome it spawned from the drunken amusement of some back alley drunk, and caught like wildfire?

 

I am obviously in favor, under the severe lack of evidence and propaganda parallels in the structure of these tales.... but the problem is the whole damn dynasty goes bat crazy in Tiberius' wake.

 

In The Wake of Tiberius.... almost sounds like a title. Just.... how did the Dynasty turn so rotten, despite Augustus' efforts to turn it? It almost seems like a imperial alter-ego hid under this all, trying to be one thing but seeking out its opposite when out of the publics view.

 

We had a politician named Anthony Weiner.....

[Onasander]

http://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/patient-education/resources/how-use-your-cunningham-incontinence-clamp

 

I was going to say you cant just tie up a penis to stop urine flow without the cock dying, but you can. This is a cunningham clamp, undoubtedly very common in the clubs in San Francisco Foucault used to visit..... they have a more advanced model that is a slip-knot that has a ring underneath to directly constrict the urethra directly pressure wise with minimal pressure elsewhere....

 

Umm... I dont think you can just tie a cock up to stop it, you gotta directly target the urethra or else it turns blue, or will still leak.

 

I guess if just for a few hours, this would be okay. I feel sorry for the poor roman soldiers put under the table on cock watching detail if this was the case. Would explain the origins of the tablecloth....

 

'Giaus, report.... we have a important mission for the caesar.... you are to sit under his table while he eats, and stair at a senators cock, if he tries to touch his cock or readjust any straps, you are to smack his cock and hand and yell 'Hail Caesar'..... do this for the honor of the republic, for the grandure of our Caesar.....

[caldrail]

Rumours were rife and normal everyday currency in Roman society. Very often however a witness, named or not, might observe something and not understand what was going on. Suetonius records many of these anecdotes of weird and wonderful behaviour from the various Caesars, many of which were not evidence of madness nor really ought to be taken at face value, as they were recorded from stroies haded about thrid hand from people who saw things and came to their own misinterpretations of what was happening. So these stories aren't necessariuly untrue as such, but distorted and given a significance they didn't deserve.

[Onasander]

During a dinner for guests, musicians, acrobats, poets or dancers would perform and dinner conversation played an important role. Dances were unusual, as it was considered improper and would not mix well with table manners, although during the comissatio this habit was often disregarded. To leave the table for bodily functions was considered inappropriate and restraining oneself was considered good manners.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_cuisine

 

 

My latin isnt good enough to tackle this.... was it just a issue of bad timing during the meal, and Tiberius got insulted/annoyed? What meal was it, and what was the dinning mores of that period, outside of Capri of course.

[caldrail]

Tiberius was quick to take offence so we're told, as in the epsidoe where a fisherman presented him with a large fish he'd caught. Tiberius ordered the man's face rubbed with the fish, which caused abrasions and no shortage of discomfort. The fisherman understandably wailed in agony and then made the mistake of thanking fate for not presenting the crab he'd also caught. Yep. Tiberius gave the order...

 

He seemed to enjoy inflicting discomfort for its own sake, displaying a nasty chip on his shoulder that even Romans, well accustomed to violence and cruelty, thought remarkable.

[Onasander]

Okay, the crab story is obviously fake, a work of perverse comedy. I sat up last night reading Tzetze and others recollect on the history of Greek comedy....

 

It's like the story of a guy getting to choose which room in he'll he gets to spend eternity in, and comes across a rather calm looking room where a woman is sitting in a room with a table, drinking coffee, and the only thing off with the room is its knee high in shit.... so the man said, "Oh well, compared to the other rooms, it could be worst" and agreed to spend eternity in that room. As soon as he said this, the demon escorting him said 'Okay, break time is over, back to standing on your heads'.

 

Similar logical vein. I wouldn't trust this story as a story about Tiberius persay, but what the guys in the butchers line during Tiberius' reign would say about him when passing the time, or the old fat guys in the public baths would say day in and day out, trying to one up one another. 

Edited May 24, 2014 by Onasander

[Steve Gad]

You have to remember that his Tibs' reputation is coloured by others. Until we have a time machine that allows us to be present at said multiple deviances, dour expressions and outright 'bad eggness' (sic) I reserve judgement. Remember that the likes of Tacitus were in full control of both their pens and their awareness of presenting a good read.

I don't doubt for a moment that Tiberius had his moments, but the the times they lived in were very different to now. Remember, even most of the actions of Jimmy Saville were regarded as par for the course of being well known, by most in the 1960's and 70's.

It's all relative, as they* say.

 

* I have no idea who 'they' are.

[caldrail]

Claudius was not really much different from the otjers, aside from the fact he was more adept at management, less egotistical, and Caesar only because the Praetorians said so. He was quite a cruel personalty. As he had been bullied and rejected throughout his life for his imperfections (even his mother described him as a man that nature had not finished properly), so he was fascinated by the suffering of others, watching torute sessions and intrigued by those moments of transition to death, not to mention being keen on watching gladiatorial combat.

[Thurinius]

To go back to the original question, was Tiberius a swell guy?

Despite disputing his sexploits, on balance I'd say he wasn't. He tried hard in the early years but he had a tough act to follow in Augustus and really he didn't have the necessary personality. He wanted to foster independence in the senate but his insular, introspective personality panicked them about his intentions. They can't read him so they try to impress him and that's when the treason trials begin.

In the end you can see Tiberius just give up, hold his hands up and bugger off to Capri to leave them to it.

[caldrail]

I think there's a general consensus that he wasn't especially likeable. Not a swell guy then.