Tiberius as a swell guy?

[caesar novus]

Tiberius took power 1999 years ago, and has a terrible reputation of depravity. But a restoral of a sculpture of him http://blogs.getty.edu/iris/rediscovering-tiberius/ has some rethinking whether he was unfairly maligned http://blogs.getty.edu/iris/has-history-got-roman-emperor-tiberius-all-wrong/

when he died, Rome was secure and solvent, no small achievement. He had also been highly respected as a military commander in his younger years, expanding and securing the boundaries of the Roman Empire. And throughout his life, he was fascinated by Greek art and culture, deeply immersed in philosophy and literature.

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For my part, I see in his face a tightness in the mouth that suggests a guarded shell attempting to look prim and respectable vs a clever and possibly ruthless core. His bone structure there is concave, which would lead mouthparts relaxing more outward unless tightened into a contrived pose. Why would a powerful person pose as nonthreatening... I guess he was afraid of Sejanus?

 

But you can't read too much into Roman sculpture, which has been altered thru the ages. In this case the right arm and a few other spots are fake as you can see at bottom of  http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/tiberius/ . That arm looks way too expressive, undignified, and casual anyway. I saw an exhibit in Rome pointing out modifications to many ancient Roman sculptures during the Renaissance, just for the reason of changing fashions. 

 

P.S. I read the memoirs by Axel Munthe who a century ago lived on Capri where Tiberius ruled from. He reported that local residents systematically destroyed artifacts of Tiberius for religious reasons as they dug them up to install foundations, etc. I guess some artifacts were quite lurid. Here is a picture from Axel's villa looking toward palace of T. on the distant prominentory (actually I hear there were multiple palaces around the island).

Edited October 28, 2013 by caesar novus

[caldrail]

Tiberius was reputed to be a bit of a dirty old man, but depravity was no worse than other peoples reputations - such accusations were made freely and some men committed suicide because of them, irrespective of any guilt. In fact, Tiberius was more of a misanthrope, clearly short tempered and quick to anger, an unwilling Caesar, and basically a man with a Caesar-sized chip on his shoulder. He had little patience with the incessant rivalries of senatorial politics. He actually felt more comnfrtable leading legions to war and felt thwarted that this role was often denied him for civic administration.

 

PS - He also felt thwarted because politics had interfered with his love life.

Edited October 28, 2013 by caldrail

[Onasander]

I didn't know Catholics hated Tiberius so much they destroyed archeological ruins......

 

Yes, he was the emperor when Jesus died, but I don't think it was something he was directly involved in, I doubt he ever paid attention to murder trails from subject nations.

 

He taxed the living daylights out of everyone (real reason he was hated, duh), but his supposed indulgences were no better than what the biblical kings of the Jewish State did in terms of sexual outrageousnes s.

 

Im catholic, and never knew to hate the imperial beachbum of Capri Shorts Island. I missed that day of Sunday School.

[caldrail]

Tiberius had no involvement in Jesus. That was handled locally by the governor of Judaea and the native government. As for being hated, that had more to do with his lack of sponsorship of public entertainment than taxes (Tiberius didn't care much for the arena). Not sure calling him a beachbum is accurate though - he was Caesar after all, and quite wealthy.

[Onasander]

A quite wealthy beachbum then.....

This is comming from a guy who lived on a ten foot shack in waimanelo....... in my best of times on Oahu...... be you in a mansion or a rolled up tarp on a beach, being a beach bum is a beachbum..... Obama is a self admitted one too. Dont see how being a emperor makes you exempt from this category..... if you walk like a duck, and quack like a duck.......

[Onasander]

A quite wealthy beachbum then.....

This is comming from a guy who lived on a ten foot shack in waimanelo....... in my best of times on Oahu...... be you in a mansion or a rolled up tarp on a beach, being a beach bum is a beachbum..... Obama is a self admitted one too. Dont see how being a emperor makes you exempt from this category..... if you walk like a duck, and quack like a duck.......

[caldrail]

Well, strictly speaking, beachbums have no job or responsibility. Tiberius was the Caesar of Rome irrespective if he avoided getting down and dirty in Rome (according to Suetonius, he preferred to get down and dirty with nymphs in the garden and toddlers in the swimming pool).

[Onasander]

I was a beachbum and head of security for a farm complex that did no farming, they did everything but farming, which made for some interesting encounters with the department of Agriculture.

 

I wouldnt of even done that had there been enough fruit in the trees to survive on, I saw like, 8 coconuts in the trees the entire time I was there.

 

I dont know about the babies, maybe, more likely not. Justinian and his wife had some nasty stuff written about them that a rational or skeptical mind would quickly dismiss.

 

Hence the taxation, both Taxed to Death. Nothing will move the rich to hatred quicker, and nothing cripples the economy faster. Everyone hurts. Only way you can get away on good terms with taxing people is winning over the business and intellectual classes first, and this has a half-life of depletion to it. Sweden is a case in point, it started in the late 19th century, and is increasingly cracking..... and it had its priesthood and business elite in unison with its intellectuals. I doubt Tiberius had this tight of a operation going. His accusations of depravity are just that, accusations. You know the rumors of Catherine the Great and the Horse.

[caldrail]

Tiberius is not known for harsh taxation, but he did reform provincial taxation to correct abuses and curtailed public expenses - a sort of austerity measure to restore financial order, which made him unpopular because it also meant no games for the plebs to enjoy.

 

I don't associate Tiberius with Sweden or beachbumming.

[Onasander]

I do.

 

I gotta track down some tax/census records from this era. A historian in the future could make the same positive claims about Obama ending corruption and increasing income only by fixing loopholes, and in actuality decreased taxes and created posperity for all, and was hated for other reasons..... thats what Obama tells us, but things are very very different.

 

Im putting my money on the tax hike. I very much doubt he was screwing babies when the other actions he took was cool and reflective.

 

He, like Obama and Pierce Brosan (old james bond), and myself = beachbum. I know the type quite well. He was sitting on the dock of the bay, watching the tide....

[caldrail]

Hardly a description of Tiberius, and quite why you imagine Pierce Brosnan or Barak Obama are beachbums is beyond me. You have some very strange preconceptions there. Not least that you're comparable to Tiberius. No. No, you're just not. Sorry.

[Onasander]

Well, not your baby molesting version. But have you ever lived on a small resort island before?

 

Try it for a year, it changes your psychology. The pictures of his mansions on the cliff look like Maui.

 

Your trying to over dignify and enforce a ultra roman outlook on a guy who was obviously not into it. He took the Roman world in his hand, and chucked it aside moving to a island. Its a behavior that exists to this day.

 

Secondly, the uncritical attitude towards his child molestation is concerning. The high treasury= high taxes. Nero = High Taxes, Justinian = High Taxes.

 

Whenever you tax people, the tongue is going to flow, and not in a endearing manner. Its a political smear. In your own post, you offer ample evidence for this that would cause any political science major raise their eyebrows.

 

If your really going to stick to this child molestation charge, I ask simply, where are the remains? Infants who are rape often die from it, even with our medical advances today. They should be littered in the trash heaps on his properties, unless he was into the 19th british fetish of sucking babies.

[Thurinius]

Not convinced he was a pervert. These accusations only surface when he retires to Capri, so No direct eye witnesses. Of his time in Rome he was said to be deeply in love with his first wife but not his second, Julia. But no stories of any perversions, not even a mistress. I think he was an able administrator but unfortunately his personality meant whatever he did he was never likely to be liked.

I see him as Gordon brown succeeding the flashy and charming tony Blair (Augustus)

[Onasander]

Only thing causing me to entertain the possibility is how Claudius turned out... but you had Augustus and Arius Didymus looming large in Tiberius' moral makeup as to how to conduct himself.... 

 

It's within possibility, either direction, just the stories are not believable, and we see political scandals fed by rumors all the time. 

 

I can't think of anything technologically supporting this story.... but then again.... Claudius. How do you explain Claudius breaking with the Augustan/Didymus Puritanical standard completely on his own without help?

[Thurinius]

How Claudius turned out? How so? Sorry I'm not quite following you