LOOK WHAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION DID FOR ROME

[kurtedwr]

Ever read this article? I find it very interesting:

 

http://www.tothepointnews.com/content/view/2778/87/

 

Many believe that illegal immigration is reaching such levels that it threatens our national security, and perhaps even our national survival. Others believe that we should give legal status to those who already illegally in our country.

 

We have already done this once, in 1986, and the result was that millions more, seeing that there was hope for eventual legal status, came here illegally, hoping for amnesty. We now have two and one half times more illegals in the country than we did in 1986.

 

If we continue to do this eventually we will reach a point, if we haven't already, where there are so many aliens in the country that they will not adopt our culture, they will not learn our customs, and they will never become Americans.

 

It has happened before. Just ask the Romans.

 

Around the middle of 4th century AD, conditions outside the boundaries of the Roman Empire began to develop which caused increasing numbers of people who were not subjects of Rome to desire entry into the Empire.

 

In 376, a tribe called the Visigoths living in Dacia (modern-day Romania) petitioned for permission to move south of the Danube River and settle in the Empire.

 

Just as there are many here who believe that both sides benefit from the employment of the illegal immigrants, there were actually those in Rome who thought there was some benefit to allowing the barbarians to come in.

 

No one took account of the law of unexpected consequences. Despite their agreement to do so, the Visigoths did not disarm. Because they were armed and the Roman legions were away at the frontiers trying to keep out more barbarians, the Visigoths found they were free to begin looting and plundering.

 

The Visigoths were not alone. Other barbarians, learning of the happy times the Visigoths were having, decided that they, too, would like to participate. The hordes continued to trickle in. Finally, in 407, the Rhine River froze over and thousands of Germanic tribesmen crossed the ice and poured into Gaul.

 

This drew so many legions away from the defense of Rome that Alaric (370-410), the Visigoth King, was able to sack the Eternal City itself.

 

This disaster prompted the legions to withdraw from Roman Britain , never to return. Britain, without the forces of law and order, descended into chaos. France and Spain, after a period of turmoil, became Germanic kingdoms only nominally allied with Rome.

 

The barbarians entered the Roman Empire in order to seek better lives. The Romans thought their economy would benefit from having the Visigoths settle on farms. Aren't we being told that our illegals are doing jobs that Americans won't do and that our economy would suffer without low-cost labor?

 

The Romans changed their laws to give the Visigoths legal status. Once the Visigoths had legal status, Ostrogoths, Alans, Burgundians, and Suevi wanted to enter the Empire and gain legal status also.

 

Compare this with amnesty granted to illegals by the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) of 1986.

 

Immediately after passage of IRCA, approximately 2.7 million illegal immigrants received green cards. Over the next 11 years another 1.3 million illegal immigrants were given green cards.

 

An unintended consequence of IRCA was the fact that by the end of 1996 there were already another 5 million illegal immigrants here. They included many relatives of the of the 4 million who had been granted amnesty.

 

It is estimated that there are between 12 and 20 million illegal aliens in the United States. Under proposals being considered by Congress, almost all of these will be given the opportunity to gain legal status and eventual citizenship.

 

According to the Heritage Foundation, over the next 20 years perhaps as many as 50 million immigrants could gain legal status. These immigrants too will have relatives who will want to come to the United States and, just as before, many of these will come illegally.

 

Thus, if these proposals are enacted into law, we can expect an unimaginable influx of illegal aliens. What effect will this have on the laws, the culture and the political structure of the United States?

 

The influx of the Germanic tribes after 408 overwhelmed Roman law, smothered Roman culture, and caused the legions, for the most part, to be withdrawn to Italy.

 

We are already at a point where there are so many illegal aliens in the United States that many feel no need to learn English or otherwise assimilate. However, if they are given legal status, they will become voters. In fact, some believe that a number of illegal aliens already vote in US elections.

 

What will happen if so large a group of unassimilated alien voters remains within our borders?

 

One hint as to what it might be like can be seen in France where there are housing developments into which law enforcement rarely, if ever, ventures. That is to say, there are parts of France which are no longer governed by French law. Is this our future?

 

We are at a crisis point. Either effective action has to be taken now or we face disaster. Rational people recognize that the first step is to gain control of our borders. Next we must do something about the 10 to 12 million illegal aliens who are in the country.

 

Immigration advocates point out it would be logistically impossible to deport this many aliens. However, these people are here to work. If existing laws against the employment of illegal aliens were enforced, the magnet of employment would disappear. Without the prospect of work many or most of the illegals would deport themselves.

 

The presence of millions of people who have no regard for our culture, who speak little English, and whose loyalties lie elsewhere is not a recipe for a healthy country. The prospect of taking action to legalize millions of immigrants and attract tens of millions more illegal aliens is a recipe for national suicide.

 

If that seems far fetched, remember, the Romans thought it was safe to legalize hordes of immigrants. Look what it did for Rome.

[caldrail]

I don't think we can blame immigration for Rome's collapse entirely. I agree it was a contributing factor, but many of those immigrants adopted semi-latin lifestyles anyway. It is true that Rome had cultural ghettoes here and there just like any modern city, but we need to look closer at the decline of the upper classes than those who did what they were told.

[Melvadius]

I find it somewhat amusing reading this Conservative diatrabe that, if you take the indigenous populations point of view, America was effectively founded by illegal imigrants and on some levels isn't the worse for that.

 

However; as Caldrail has pointed out immigration was one factor but IMO what was probably a larger factor in the Roman Empires collapse was the series of internecine wars as competing Emperors in the later Empire made increasingly destructive forays for control.

 

Personally looking from the outside of the campaigns are being run, in the what looks like being an even more expensive US presidential election than usual, the destructive 'internecine' attitude to each other being taken by the competing candidates campaigns is probably more of a concern.

[Maty]

Um ... let's start by pointing out that the USA of 2012 is not the Roman empire of 407. Therefore making any comparison has to start by explaining why such very significant differences between the two items being compared do not affect the comparison.

 

Then let's point out that the 'history' given here is a somewhat misleading summary, but even by this account, the Visigoths were actually legal immigrants. As stated, they petitioned for permission to enter and it was granted. So if we are to make any comparison with the USA it has to start with legal migrants.

 

Also note that the problems with the Visigoths came about because of the blatant corruption of government officials. So the lesson here could just as easily be that immigrants should be properly and fairly treated.

 

I'm not saying that the USA does not need to have a serious debate about immigration. However, a facile gloss of later Roman history is not the way to go about it.

[caldrail]

True, though I feel bound to point out that not all the Goths were legal immigrants. Some were granted permission to cross the Danube, others followed in their wake without permission, although seems to have been less of an issue than exploiting the whole crowd of them extremely ruthlessly.

[Klingan]

The influx of the Germanic tribes after 408 overwhelmed Roman law, smothered Roman culture, and caused the legions, for the most part, to be withdrawn to Italy.

 

So maybe some of the American legions should withdraw to northern America? I'm sure that a large number of countries wouldn't mind.

 

Ok, sorry, that was a bad joke, but I simply can't find any serious response to a text like this.

[Viggen]

It has happened before. Just ask the Romans.

 

why ask them, just ask the native americans, they can tell you, illegal immigration can be lethal for locals

[caldrail]

Immigration does not smother the native culture unless the native culture is already weakening to the point where immigrant populations are powerful enough to establish their own cultural bias. What happens (as it did in Roman times) is that the immigrants either conform to the native culture to some degree or form ghetto's which are not in themselves a 'threat' (because becoming a perceived threat invites popular dissent against them).

 

Therefore we could conclude that immigration was a sympton of the Roman condition, not the cause of it.

[Maty]

This is the obvious place to insert that old chestnut of Juvenal's

 

It is that the city is become Greek, Quirites, that I cannot tolerate;

and yet how small the proportion even of the dregs of Greece!

Syrian Orontes has long since flowed into the Tiber,

and brought with it its language, morals,

and the crooked harps with the flute-player,

and its national tambourines,

and girls made to stand for hire at the Circus.

 

Go thither, you who fancy a barbarian harlot with embroidered turban.

That rustic of yours, Quirinus, takes his Greek supper-cloak,

and wears Greek prizes on his neck besmeared with Ceroma.

One forsaking steep Sicyon,

another Amydon,

a third from Andros,

another from Samos,

another again from Tralles,

or Alabanda, swarm to Esquiliae,

and the hill called from its osiers, [Viminal]

destined to be the very vitals, and future lords of great houses.

These have a quick wit, desperate impudence, a ready speech,

more rapidly fluent even than Isaeus.

 

Yup, immigrants ruined Rome. Look at what a mess the place was just four hundred years later.

 

Among the immigrants who ruined Roman culture

Cato the elder (Tusculum)

Catullus (Verona)

Cicero (Arpinum)

Horace (Venusia)

Martial (Hispania)

Plautus (Umbria)

Pliny the elder (Como)

Virgil (Mantua)

 

Someone should have tarred and feathered the lot of them, and ridden 'em out of town on a rail. yee-haw!

[caldrail]

It is interesting to read these views but I guess we have to expect senior or educated Romans to be disparaging of other peoples culture, given Roman arrogance and the lack of any real 'romanisation' as is popularly imagined in childrens books, and basically what these people are sniffing at are those who are not completely latin in manner and speech, those who bring their own customs into play, which under normal circumstances wouldn't affect the upper classes in any real sense since despite any immigrant views and behaviours, they still lived among the Romans, adopted many of their customs, and obeyed their laws.

Edited August 22, 2012 by caldrail

[Klingan]

It is that the city is become Greek, Quirites, that I cannot tolerate;

and yet how small the proportion even of the dregs of Greece!

Syrian Orontes has long since flowed into the Tiber,

and brought with it its language, morals,

and the crooked harps with the flute-player,

and its national tambourines,

and girls made to stand for hire at the Circus.

 

Go thither, you who fancy a barbarian harlot with embroidered turban.

That rustic of yours, Quirinus, takes his Greek supper-cloak,

and wears Greek prizes on his neck besmeared with Ceroma.

One forsaking steep Sicyon,

another Amydon,

a third from Andros,

another from Samos,

another again from Tralles,

or Alabanda, swarm to Esquiliae,

and the hill called from its osiers, [Viminal]

destined to be the very vitals, and future lords of great houses.

These have a quick wit, desperate impudence, a ready speech,

more rapidly fluent even than Isaeus.

 

Very interesting, thank you for posting it. Which epigram is it?

 

Cicero (Arpinum)

 

Sorry to say, but the anti-immigrant lobby has got a point here, Cicero came damn close to destroying Rome for me!

[Northern Neil]

'Illegal' immigration into Britannia during the 5th century certainly had a profound effect. Genetically, it has been found ( see oppenheimer etc ) that the Anglo Saxon, viking and Norman invasions only account for 8% of the British genetic makeup* - and yet almost all of the British Isles speak a language derived from a mixing of dialects imported from Lower Germany, with some Scandinavian and Norman French input. Despite being Celts in the ethnic sense (whatever that word really means ) almost none of us speaks Welsh, Cornish or Gaelic. The same situation exists in Turkey, where the language and identity of a relatively small proportion of central Asian nomads was imposed upon a population which, in the genetic sense, is not very different from that of Anatolia prior to the disaster at Manzikert. Which means, wether they like it or not, most Turks have a great deal of Greek and Armenian genes!

 

Back on topic though, it sems to me that Germanic influx into the Empire had relatively little effect. Spain and Gaul still speak a Latin based language despite the Franks and the visigoths.

 

*The sample data obtained, of course, from indigenous British people. The current population migration into Britain from South Asian countries is far larger, proportionally, than the tiny Saxon influx in the 5th century...

Edited August 24, 2012 by Northern Neil

[guy]

Yup, immigrants ruined Rome. Look at what a mess the place was just four hundred years later.

 

Among the immigrants who ruined Roman culture

Cato the elder (Tusculum)

Catullus (Verona)

Cicero (Arpinum)

Horace (Venusia)

Martial (Hispania)

Plautus (Umbria)

Pliny the elder (Como)

Virgil (Mantua)

 

Someone should have tarred and feathered the lot of them, and ridden 'em out of town on a rail. yee-haw!

 

Not wanting to get into the modern politics of illegal immigration, America is fortunate that the vast majority of its immigrants (both legal and illegal) want to learn English, assimilate into American culture, and become

Edited August 25, 2012 by guy

[Klingan]

Cato the Elder, as a perfect example, was a pro-Roman zealot and an anti-Greek xenophobe and bigot. He was certainly no multiculturalist.

 

Interesting enough, it could perhaps have been (at least partly) an official policy of his rather than a belief. This can be shown through his great knowledge of Greek literature, art and culture in general - it's depth suggests an interest rather than an enforced education.

[guy]

Interesting enough, it could perhaps have been (at least partly) an official policy of his rather than a belief. This can be shown through his great knowledge of Greek literature, art and culture in general - it's depth suggests an interest rather than an enforced education.

 

I, too, have wondered about his motivation.

 

His distrust of Greek physicians is very indicative of his warped view:

 

In due course, my son Marcus, I shall explain what I found out in Athens about these Greeks, and demonstrate what advantage there may be in looking into their writings (while not taking them too seriously). They are a worthless and unruly tribe. Take this as a prophecy: when those folk give us their writings they will corrupt everything. All the more if they send their doctors here. They have sworn to kill all barbarians [us Romans} with medicine