Death of Germanicus

[Julius Caesar]

I personally can't find any reason to continue arguing this point.  I'm just going to suggest some books to give you some more opinions.  My views are based upon my own research/conclusions, not necessarily a single line written in any one book (especially an encyclopedia style entry). 

 

Tiberius the Politician by B. Levick

Tiberius Caesar by G. Baker

Tiberius Caesar by D. Shotter

Age of Augustus by W. Eck

Livia: First Lady of Imperial Rome by A. Barrett

 

Greek and Roman Historians: Information and Misinformation a wonderful look into the biases and propoganda of ancient authors.  by Michael Grant.

 

There have also been suggestions that Livia poisoned Augustus, yet this is widely discredited.  Its important to understand that these accusations are nearly provable or unprovable.  You are absolutely right, they are just opinion.

 

Livia was rumored to have killed or have killed many Julio-Claudians wasn't she? I wonder if any were true?

 

But anyway, I tend to go with those who say Tiberius was not behind Germanicus' death. Germanicus had already proved his loyalty to Tiberius while in command of the Rhine legions, and even if he planned to have him poisoned, it seems an odd move on Tiberius' part to give Germanicus such broad powers in the East that he himself, as well as Augustus' grandson Gaius, had been given by Augustus.

 

But who knows really. The seeming eagerness with which the Julio-Claudians devoured each other never ceases to amaze me, though I guess it really shouldn't. Germanicus' death (and the inability of his widow Agrippina to keep her mouth shut and hide her anger as Germanicus pleaded with her to do on his deathbed) was probably the worst thing to happen to the Julio-Claudian line though, as it set in motion the chain of events that deprived his two older sons, Nero and Drusus, of their chance at being emperor as both were victims of Sejanus. This in turn left Caligula; surely either of the older sons would have been better. Then came Claudius, and then Nero, who of course destroyed the dynasty forever.

[Germanicus Nero]

That was before Germanicus went to Alexandria (which was forbidden) and started acting as if he was Emperor. Also if he did have plans to whack Germanicus wouldn't giving him that power be wonderful misdirection. Again after what he did to the Imperial family it's doesn't seem so outlandish that he became jealous of Germanicus. Obviously you can see how and where I formed my opinion from. Where and how did you form yours?

[Primus Pilus]

Dio Cassius Book 57 (this is all Dio Cassius really says on the subject because he jumps from Germanicus' victory over the Germans directly to his death... therefore nothing can be discerned either way)

 

At the death of Germanicus Tiberius and Livia were thoroughly pleased, but everybody else was deeply grieved. He was a man of the most striking physical beauty and likewise of the noblest spirit, and was conspicuous alike for his culture and for his strength. Though the bravest of men against the foe, he showed himself most gentle with his countrymen; section and though as a Caesar he had the greatest power, he kept his ambitions on the same plane as weaker men. He never conducted himself oppressively toward his subjects or with jealousy toward Drusus or in any reprehensible way toward Tiberius. In a word, he was one of the few men of all time who have neither sinned against the fortune allotted to them nor been destroyed by it. Although on several occasions he might have obtained the imperial power, with the free consent not only of the soldiers but of the people and senate as well, he refused to do so. His death occurred at Antioch as the result of a plot formed by Piso and Plancina. For bones of men that had been buried in the house where he dwelt and sheets of lead containing curses together with his name were found while he was yet alive; and that poison was the means of his carrying off was revealed by the condition of his body, which was brought into the Forum and exhibited to all who were present. Piso later returned to Rome and was brought before the senate on the charge of murder by Tiberius himself, who thus endeavoured to clear himself of the suspicion of having destroyed Germanicus; but Piso secured a postponement of his trial and committed suicide.

 

Tacitus Book II - Starting with passage 43 (Tacitus is much more thorough in his account, but yet says nothing that shows proof of Tiberius' involvement in Germanicus' death or that Germanicus acted like the Emperor in Egypt.. He does say that Tiberius was displeased, but not that he wanted to kill him)

 

Tiberius granting Germanicus full power in the east...

 

Tiberius accordingly discussed these matters and the affairs of Armenia, which I have already related, before the Senate. "The commotions in the East," he said, "could be quieted only by the wisdom of Germanicus; his own life was on the decline, and Drusus had not yet reached his maturity." Thereupon, by a decree of the Senate, the provinces beyond sea were entrusted to Germanicus, with greater powers wherever he went than were given to those who obtained their provinces by lot or by the emperor's appointment.

 

Tiberius removes a Germanicus man from Syria to be replaced by an enemy, Piso. Tacitus describes the relationship, but still we can't know for sure just from reading the passage, why Tiberius did this. Can we assume that Tiberius sent Piso to Syria to kill Germanicus? I guess one could, but that's a mighty stretch (passage not included).

 

Germanicus assumes his office in the east... nothing out of the ordinary for a magistrate here.

 

In the following year Tiberius held his third, Germanicus his second, consulship. Germanicus, however, entered on the office at Nicopolis, a city of Achaia, whither he had arrived by the coast of Illyricum, after having I seen his brother Drusus, who was then in Dalmatia, and endured a stormy voyage through the Adriatic and afterwards the Ionian Sea. He accordingly devoted a few days to the repair of his fleet, and, at the same time, in remembrance of his ancestors, he visited the bay which the victory of Actium had made famous, the spoils consecrated by Augustus, and the camp of Antonius. For, as I have said, Augustus was his great uncle, Antonius his grandfather, and vivid images of disaster and success rose before him on the spot. Thence he went to Athens, and there, as a concession to our treaty with an allied and ancient city, he was attended only by single lictor. The Greeks welcomed him with able most elaborate honours, and brought forward all the old deeds and sayings of their countrymen, to give additional dignity to their flattery.

 

More of the same... nothing unusual, except the portends of doom which are so very common. (Beware the Ides of March, When the cock crows you shall betray me, etc.) Adds a certain drama to things and begins to shape the readers opinion.

 

Thence he directed his course to Euboea and crossed to Lesbos, where Agrippina for the last time was confined and gave birth to Julia. He then penetrated to the remoter parts of the province of Asia, visited the Thracian cities, Perinthus and Byzantium; next, the narrow strait of the Propontis and the entrance of the Pontus, from an anxious wish to become acquainted with those ancient and celebrated localities. He gave relief, as he went, to provinces which had been exhausted by internal feuds or the oppressions of governors. In his return he attempted to see the sacred mysteries of the Samothracians, but north winds which he encountered drove him aside from his course. And so after visiting Ilium and surveying a scene venerable from the vicissitudes of fortune and as the birthplace of our people, he coasted back along Asia, and touched at Colophon, to consult the oracle of the Clarian Apollo. There, it is not a woman, as at Delphi, but a priest chosen from certain families, generally from Miletus, who ascertains simply the number and the names of the applicants. Then descending into a cave and drinking a draught from a secret spring, the man, who is commonly ignorant of letters and of poetry, utters a response in verse answering to the thoughts conceived in the mind any inquirer. It was said that he prophesied to Germanicus, in dark hints, as oracles usually do, an early doom.

 

Tacitus then describes Piso causing general trouble by stirring up the legions, etc. which I won't quote here. It still doesnt show any connection to Tiberius meaning ill will to Germanicus. This is followed up by descriptions of Germanicus handling the Armenian/Parthian questions. While at the same time, Tacitus builds up the idea that Piso is becoming increasingly bitter with Germanicus because of his success and glory.

 

Now Tacitus discusses Germanicus behavior in Egypt. Yes Tiberius isn't pleased, but Tacitus is clearly not describing a desire to murder his heir. Nor is Germanicus acting too terrible outlandish... seems to me he is basically being a tourist...

 

Germanicus set out for Egypt to study its antiquities. His ostensible motive, however was solicitude for the province. He reduced the price of corn by opening the granaries, and adopted many practices pleasing to the multitude. He would go about without soldiers, with sandalled feet, and apparelled after the Greek fashion, in imitation of Publius Scipio, who, it is said, habitually did the same in Sicily, even when the war with Carthage was still raging. Tiberius having gently expressed disapproval of his dress and manners, pronounced a very sharp censure on his visit to Alexandria without the emperor's leave, contrary to the regulations of Augustus. That prince, among other secrets of imperial policy had forbidden senators and Roman knights of the higher rank to enter Egypt except by permission, and he had specially reserved the country, from a fear that any one who held a province containing the key of the land and of the sea, with ever so small a force against the mightiest army, might distress Italy by famine.

 

Germanicus, however, who had not yet learnt how much he was blamed for his expedition, sailed up the Nile from the city of Canopus as his starting point. Spartans founded the place because Canopus, pilot of one of their ships, had been buried there, when Menelaus on his return to Greece was driven into a distant sea and to the shores of Libya. Thence he went to the river's nearest mouth, dedicated to a Hercules who, the natives say, was born in the country and was the original hero, others, who afterwards showed like valour, having received his name. Next he visited the vast ruins of ancient Thebes. There yet remained on the towering piles Egyptian inscriptions, with a complete account of the city's past grandeur. One of the aged priests, who was desired to interpret the language of his country, related how once there had dwelt in Thebes seven hundred thousand men of military age, and how with such an army king Rhamses conquered Libya, Ethiopia, Media, Persia, Bactria, and Scythia, and held under his sway the countries inhabited by the Syrians, Armenians, and their neighbours, the Cappadocians, from the Bithynian to the Lycian sea. There was also to be read that tributes were imposed on these nations, the weight of silver and gold, the tale of arms and horses, the gifts of ivory and of perfumes to the temples, with the amount of grain and supplies furnished by each people, a revenue as magnificent as is now exacted by the might of Parthia or the power of Rome.

 

But Germanicus also bestowed attention on other wonders. Chief of these were the stone image of Memnon, which, when struck by the sun's rays, gives out the sound of a human voice; the pyramids, rising up like mountains amid almost impassable wastes of shifting sand, raised by the emulation and vast wealth of kings; the lake hollowed out of the earth to be a receptacle for the Nile's overflow; and elsewhere the river's narrow channel and profound depth which no line of the explorer can penetrate. He then came to Elephantine and Syene, formerly the limits of the Roman empire, which now extends to the Red Sea.

 

Next we find that Tiberius is pretty pleased with Germanicus' success in handling Armenia...

 

Tidings having also arrived of Artaxias being made king of Armenia by Germanicus, the Senate decreed that both he and Drusus should enter the city with an ovation. Arches too were raised round the sides of the temple of Mars the Avenger, with statues of the two Caesars. Tiberius was the more delighted at having established peace by wise policy than if he had finished a war by battle.

 

Now we get into the decline of Germanicus' health.. how we get to murder ordered by Tiberius from this I don't know. Its a huge amount of speculation and innuendo. Clearly, Piso and Germanicus are not on good terms, but the other conclusions are rather enormous jumps.

 

Germanicus meanwhile, as he was returning from Egypt, found that all his directions to the legions and to the various cities had been repealed or reversed. This led to grievous insults on Piso, while he as savagely assailed the prince. Piso then resolved to quit Syria. Soon he was detained there by the failing health of Germanicus, but when he heard of his recovery, while people were paying the vows they had offered for his safety, he went attended by his lictors, drove away the victims placed by the altars with all the preparations for sacrifice, and the festal gathering of the populace of Antioch. Then he left for Seleucia and awaited the result of the illness which had again attacked Germanicus. The terrible intensity of the malady was increased by the belief that he had been poisoned by Piso. And certainly there were found hidden in the floor and in the walls disinterred remains of human bodies, incantations and spells, and the name of Germanicus inscribed on leaden tablets, half-burnt cinders smeared with blood, and other horrors by which in popular belief souls are devoted so the infernal deities. Piso too was accused of sending emissaries to note curiously every unfavourable symptom of the illness.

 

Next, Germanicus renounces friendship with Piso. Tacitus describes Germanicus giving last words to family and friends prior to his death. (not included) After that Tacitus makes a rather obvious admission, that proof is impossible...

 

As to the body which, before it was burnt, lay bare in the forum at Antioch, its destined place of burial, it is doubtful whether it exhibited the marks of poisoning. For men according as they pitied Germanicus and were prepossessed with suspicion or were biased by partiality towards Piso, gave conflicting accounts.

 

Describing Piso's reaction to the death of Germanicus.. absolutely assured that this is not a first hand account..

 

Piso was at the island of Coos when tidings reached him that Germanicus was dead. He received the news with extravagant joy, slew victims, visited the temples, with no moderation in his transports

 

Piso realizing he might be in trouble and trying to figure out what to do (he has been accused of poisoning Germanicus whether he did it or not)

 

Centurions streamed in, and hinted to Piso that he had the sympathy of the legions at his command. "Go back," they said, "to the province which has not been rightfully taken from you, and is still vacant." While he deliberated what he was to do, his son, Marcus Piso, advised speedy return to Rome. "As yet," he said, "you have not contracted any inexpiable guilt, and you need not dread feeble suspicions or vague rumours. Your strife with Germanicus deserved hatred perhaps, but not punishment, and by your having been deprived of the province, your enemies have been fully satisfied. But if you return, should Sentius resist you, civil war is begun, and you will not retain on your side the centurions and soldiers, who are powerfully swayed by the yet recent memory of their general and by a deep-rooted affection for the Caesars."

 

Against this view Domitius Celer, one of Piso's intimate friends, argued that he ought to profit by the opportunity. "It was Piso, not Sentius, who had been appointed to Syria. It was to Piso that the symbols of power and a praetor's jurisdiction and the legions had been given. In case of a hostile menace, who would more rightfully confront it by arms than the man who had received the authority and special commission of a governor ? And as for rumours it is best to leave time in which they may die away. Often the innocent cannot stand against the first burst of unpopularity. But if Piso possesses himself of the army, and increases his resources, much which cannot be foreseen will haply turn out in his favour. Are we hastening to reach Italy along with the ashes of Germanicus, that, unheard and undefended, you may be hurried to ruin by the wailings of Agrippina and the first gossip of an ignorant mob? You have on your side the complicity of Augusta and the emperor's favour, though in secret, and none mourn more ostentatiously over the death of Germanicus than those who most rejoice at it."

 

Next Piso writes a letter to Tiberius essentially saying he is a loyal man and will essentially right the 'wrongs' of Germanicus. He goes on to have a minor conflict with the Cilicians which is irrelevant and I will not relate here...

 

Without much difficulty Piso, who was ever ready for violent action, was led into this view. He sent a letter to Tiberius accusing Germanicus of luxury and arrogance, and asserting that, having been driven away to make room for revolution, he had resumed the command of the army in the same loyal spirit in which he had before held it. At the same time he put Domitius on board a trireme, with an order to avoid the coast and to push on to Syria through the open sea away from the islands. He formed into regular companies the deserters who flocked to him, armed the camp followers, crossed with his ships to the mainland, intercepted a detachment of new levies on their way to Syria, and wrote word to the petty kings of Cilicia that they were to help him with auxiliaries, the young Piso actively assisting in all the business of war, though he had advised against undertaking it.

 

Next Tacitus describes the general sadness caused by Germanicus death (which is mostly skipped). Still despite Tiberius 'jealousy' he wisely gives full honor.

 

And so the people grieved the more bitterly as though Germanicus was again lost to them. New honours were devised and decreed, as men were inspired by affection for him or by genius. His name was to be celebrated in the song of the Salii; chairs of state with oaken garlands over them were to be set up in the places assigned to the priesthood of the Augustales; his image in ivory was to head the procession in the games of the circus; no flamen or augur, except from the Julian family, was to be chosen in the room of Germanicus. Triumphal arches were erected at Rome, on the banks of the Rhine, and on mount Amanus in Syria, with an inscription recording his achievements, and how he had died in the public service. A cenotaph was raised at Antioch, where the body was burnt, a lofty mound at Epidaphna, where he had ended his life. The number of his statues, or of the places in which they were honoured, could not easily be computed. When a golden shield of remarkable size was voted him as a leader among orators, Tiberius declared that he would dedicate to him one of the usual kind, similar to the rest, for in eloquence, he said, there was no distinction of rank, and it was a sufficient glory for him to be classed among ancient writers.

 

The funeral.. whether Tiberius is happy or sad is irrelevant.. it still doesn't prove that he had any part in his death.

 

...Marcus Valerius and Caius Aurelius, the consuls, who had already entered on office, and a great number of the people thronged the road in scattered groups, every one weeping as he felt inclined. Flattery there was none, for all knew that Tiberius could scarcely dissemble his joy at the death of Germanicus.

 

Tiberius and Augusta refrained from showing themselves, thinking it below their dignity to shed tears in public, or else fearing that, if all eyes scrutinised their faces, their hypocrisy would be revealed. I do not find in any historian or in the daily register that Antonia, Germanicus's mother, rendered any conspicuous honour to the deceased, though besides Agrippina, Drusus, and Claudius, all his other kinsfolk are mentioned by name. She may either have been hindered by illness, or with a spirit overpowered by grief she may not have had the heart to endure the sight of so great an affliction. But I can more easily believe that Tiberius and Augusta, who did not leave the palace, kept her within, that their sorrow might seem equal to hers, and that the grandmother and uncle might be thought to follow the mother's example in staying at home.

 

Even Tacitus admits that Tiberius shows respect to the widow.

 

...But nothing impressed Tiberius more deeply than the enthusiasm kindled in favour of Agrippina, whom men spoke of as the glory of the country, the sole surviving offspring of Augustus, the solitary example of the old times, while looking up to heaven and the gods they prayed for the safety of her children and that they might outlive their oppressors.

 

Tacitus then describes more evidence that Tiberius is not upset about the death, but not necessary to repeat here. Perhaps it jealousy, perhaps not, either way, it doesn;t prove anything.

 

Some there were who missed the grandeur of a state funeral, and contrasted the splendid honours conferred by Augustus on Drusus, the father of Germanicus. "Then the emperor himself," they said, "went in the extreme rigour of winter as far as Ticinum, and never leaving the corpse entered Rome with it. Round the funeral bier were ranged the images of the Claudii and the Julii; there was weeping in the forum, and a panegyric before the rostra; every honour devised by our ancestors or invented by their descendants was heaped on him. But as for Germanicus, even the customary distinctions due to any noble had not fallen to his lot. Granting that his body, because of the distance of the journey, was burnt in any fashion in foreign lands, still all the more honours ought to have been afterwards paid him, because at first chance had denied them. His brother had gone but one day's journey to meet him; his uncle, not even to the city gates. Where were all those usages of the past, the image at the head of the bier, the lays composed in commemoration of worth, the eulogies and laments, or at least the semblance of grief?"

 

All this was known to Tiberius, and, to silence popular talk, he reminded the people in a proclamation that many eminent Romans had died for their country and that none had been honoured with such passionate regret. This regret was a glory both to himself and to all, provided only a due mean were observed; for what was becoming in humble homes and communities, did not befit princely personages and an imperial people. Tears and the solace found in mourning were suitable enough for the first burst of grief; but now they must brace their hearts to endurance, as in former days the Divine Julius after the loss of his only daughter, and the Divine Augustus when he was bereft of his grandchildren, had thrust away their sorrow. There was no need of examples from the past, showing how often the Roman people had patiently endured the defeats of armies, the destruction of generals, the total extinction of noble families. Princes were mortal; the State was everlasting. Let them then return to their usual pursuits, and, as the shows of the festival of the Great Goddess were at hand, even resume their amusements.

 

Piso comes to Rome.. even Drusus refuses to believe that Piso poisoned Germanicus

 

Piso meanwhile sent his son on to Rome with a message intended to pacify the emperor, and then made his way to Drusus, who would, he hoped, be not so much infuriated at his brother's death as kindly disposed towards himself in consequence of a rival's removal. Tiberius, to show his impartiality, received the youth courteously, and enriched him with the liberality he usually bestowed on the sons of noble families. Drusus replied to Piso that if certain insinuations were true, he must be foremost in his resentment, but he preferred to believe that they were false and groundless, and that Germanicus's death need be the ruin of no one. This he said openly, avoiding anything like secrecy. Men did not doubt that his answer was prescribed him by Tiberius, in as much as one who had generally all the simplicity and candour of youth, now had recourse to the artifices of old age.

 

It begins to go to trial... Tacitus begins the rumors of Tiberius' involvement. Actually he indicates that Tiberius is aware that others are suspecting him (probably related to his lack of emotion from above)

 

Next day, Fulcinius Trio asked the consul's leave to prosecute Piso. It was contended against him by Vitellius and Veranius and the others who had been the companions of Germanicus, that this was not Trio's proper part, and that they themselves meant to report their instructions from Germanicus, not as accusers, but as deponents and witnesses to facts. Trio, abandoning the prosecution on this count, obtained leave to accuse Piso's previous career, and the emperor was requested to undertake the inquiry. This even the accused did not refuse, fearing, as he did, the bias of the people and of the Senate; while Tiberius, he knew, was resolute enough to despise report, and was also entangled in his mother's complicity. Truth too would be more easily distinguished from perverse misrepresentation by a single judge, where a number would be swayed by hatred and ill-will.

 

Tiberius was not unaware of the formidable difficulty of the inquiry and of the rumours by which he was himself assailed. Having therefore summoned a few intimate friends, he listened to the threatening speeches of the prosecutors and to the pleadings of the accused, and finally referred the whole case to the Senate.

 

Continued....

[Primus Pilus]

The charges and the trial... there is not enough evidence

 

Two days were then assigned for the bringing forward of the charges, and after six days' interval, the prisoner's defence was to occupy three days. Thereupon Fulcinius Trio began with some old and irrelevant accusations about intrigues and extortion during Piso's government of Spain. This, if proved, would not have been fatal to the defendant, if he cleared himself as to his late conduct, and, if refuted, would not have secured his acquittal, if he were convicted of the greater crimes. Next, Servaeus, Veranius, and Vitellius, all with equal earnestness, Vitellius with striking eloquence, alleged against Piso that out of hatred of Germanicus and a desire of revolution he had so corrupted the common soldiers by licence and oppression of the allies that he was called by the vilest of them "father of the legions" while on the other hand to all the best men, especially to the companions and friends of Germanicus, he had been savagely cruel. Lastly, he had, they said, destroyed Germanicus himself by sorceries and poison, and hence came those ceremonies and horrible sacrifices made by himself and Plancina; then he had threatened the State with war, and had been defeated in battle, before he could be tried as a prisoner.

 

On all points but one the defence broke down. That he had tampered with the soldiers, that his province had been at the mercy of the vilest of them, that he had even insulted his chief, he could not deny. It was only the charge of poisoning from which he seemed to have cleared himself. This indeed the prosecutors did not adequately sustain by merely alleging that at a banquet given by Germanicus, his food had been tainted with poison by the hands of Piso who sat next above him. It seemed absurd to suppose that he would have dared such an attempt among strange servants, in the sight of so many bystanders, and under Germanicus's own eyes. And, besides, the defendant offered his slaves to the torture, and insisted on its application to the attendants on that occasion. But the judges for different reasons were merciless, the emperor, because war had been made on a province, the Senate because they could not be sufficiently convinced that there had been no treachery about the death of Germanicus.

 

At the same time shouts were heard from the people in front of the Senate House, threatening violence if he escaped the verdict of the Senators. They had actually dragged Piso's statues to the Gemonian stairs, and were breaking them in pieces, when by the emperor's order they were rescued and replaced. Piso was then put in a litter and attended by a tribune of one of the Praetorian cohorts, who followed him, so it was variously rumoured, to guard his person or to be his executioner.

 

 

The suicide, including accusations against Livia

 

Plancina was equally detested, but had stronger interest. Consequently it was considered a question how far the emperor would be allowed to go against her. While Piso's hopes were in suspense, she offered to share his lot, whatever it might be, and in the worst event, to be his companion in death. But as soon as she had secured her pardon through the secret intercessions of Augusta, she gradually withdrew from her husband and separated her defence from his. When the prisoner saw that this was fatal to him, he hesitated whether he should still persist, but at the urgent request of his sons braced his courage and once more entered the Senate. There he bore patiently the renewal of the accusation, the furious voices of the Senators, savage opposition indeed from every quarter, but nothing daunted him so much as to see Tiberius, without pity and without anger, resolutely closing himself against any inroad of emotion. He was conveyed back to his house, where, seemingly by way of preparing his defence for the next day, he wrote a few words, sealed the paper and handed it to a freedman. Then he bestowed the usual attention on his person; after a while, late at night, his wife having left his chamber, he ordered the doors to be closed, and at daybreak was found with his throat cut and a sword lying on the ground.

 

 

Tacitus discusses a word of mouth, no evidence rumor, that has the makings of popular culture/urban myth...

 

I remember to have heard old men say that a document was often seen in Piso's hands, the substance of which he never himself divulged, but which his friends repeatedly declared contained a letter from Tiberius with instructions referring to Germanicus, and that it was his intention to produce it before the Senate and upbraid the emperor, had he not been deluded by vain promises from Sejanus. Nor did he perish, they said, by his own hand, but by that of one sent to be his executioner. Neither of these statements would I positively affirm; still it would not have been right for me to conceal what was related by those who lived up to the time of my youth.

 

 

The end...

 

The emperor, assuming an air of sadness, complained in the Senate that the purpose of such a death was to bring odium on himself, and he asked with repeated questionings how Piso had spent his last day and night. Receiving answers which were mostly judicious, though in part somewhat incautious, he read out a note written by Piso, nearly to the following effect:-

 

"Crushed by a conspiracy of my foes and the odium excited by a lying charge, since my truth and innocence find no place here, I call the immortal gods to witness that towards you Caesar, I have lived loyally, and with like dutiful respect towards your mother. And I implore you to think of my children, one of whom, Cneius is in way implicated in my career, whatever it may have been, seeing that all this time he has been at Rome, while the other, Marcus Piso, dissuaded me from returning to Syria. Would that I had yielded to my young son rather than he to his aged father! And therefore I pray the more earnestly that the innocent may not pay the penalty of my wickedness. By forty-five years of obedience, by my association with you in the consulate, as one who formerly won the esteem of the Divine Augustus, your father, as one who is your friend and will never hereafter ask a favour, I implore you to save my unhappy son." About Plancina he added not a word.

 

Tiberius after this acquitted the young Piso of the charge of civil war on the ground that a son could not have refused a father's orders, compassionating at the same time the high rank of the family and the terrible downfall even of Piso himself, however he might have deserved it. For Plancina he spoke with shame and conscious disgrace, alleging in excuse the intercession of his mother, secret complaints against whom from all good men were growing more and more vehement. "So it was the duty of a grandmother," people said, "to look a grandson's murderess in the face, to converse with her and rescue her from the Senate. What the laws secure on behalf of every citizen, had to Germanicus alone been denied. The voices of a Vitellius and Veranius had bewailed a Caesar, while the emperor and Augusta had defended Plancina. She might as well now turn her poisonings, and her devices which had proved so successful, against Agrippina and her children, and thus sate this exemplary grandmother and uncle with the blood of a most unhappy house."

 

Two days were frittered away over this mockery of a trial, Tiberius urging Piso's children to defend their mother. While the accusers and their witnesses pressed the prosecution with rival zeal, and there was no reply, pity rather than anger was on the increase. Aurelius Cotta, the consul, who was first called on for his vote (for when the emperor put the question, even those in office went through the duty of voting), held that Piso's name ought to be erased from the public register, half of his property confiscated, half given up to his son, Cneius Piso, who was to change his first name; that Marcus Piso, stript of his rank, with an allowance of five million sesterces, should be banished for ten years, Plancina's life being spared in consideration of Augusta's intercession.

 

Much of the sentence was mitigated by the emperor. The name of Piso was not to be struck out of the public register, since that of Marcus Antonius who had made war on his country, and that of Julius Antonius who had dishonoured the house of Augustus, still remained. Marcus Piso too he saved from degradation, and gave him his father's property, for he was firm enough, as I have often related, against the temptation of money, and now for very shame at Plancina's acquittal, he was more than usually merciful. Again, when Valerius Messalinus and Caecina Severus proposed respectively the erection of a golden statue in the temple of Mars the Avenger and of an altar to Vengeance, he interposed, protesting that victories over the foreigner were commemorated with such monuments, but that domestic woes ought to be shrouded in silent grief.

 

There was a further proposal of Messalinus, that Tiberius, Augusta, Antonia, Agrippina and Drusus ought to be publicly thanked for having avenged Germanicus. He omitted all mention of Claudius. Thereupon he was pointedly asked by Lucius Asprenas before the Senate, whether the omission had been intentional, and it was only then that the name of Claudius was added. For my part, the wider the scope of my reflection on the present and the past, the more am I impressed by their mockery of human plans in every transaction. Clearly, the very last man marked out for empire by public opinion, expectation and general respect was he whom fortune was holding in reserve as the emperor of the future.

 

A few days afterwards the emperor proposed to the Senate to confer the priesthood on Vitellius, Veranius and Servaeus. To Fulcinius he promised his support in seeking promotion, but warned him not to ruin his eloquence by rancour. This was the end of avenging the death of Germanicus, a subject of conflicting rumours not only among the people then living but also in after times. So obscure are the greatest events, as some take for granted any hearsay, whatever its source, others turn truth into falsehood, and both errors find encouragement with posterity.

 

 

Conclusion... there isn't one... there is no evidence that Tiberius killed Germanicus, and not much that Piso killed him. Ok my fingers hurt.

[Germanicus Nero]

There was evidence in the letter that Piso received from Tiberius. The letter which was never allowed before the senate. Once more you can see where I formed my opinion. Yours is simply speculation. Mine came from written text.

[Primus Pilus]

There was evidence in the letter that Piso received from Tiberius. The letter which was never allowed before the senate. Once more you can see where I formed my opinion. Yours is simply speculation. Mine came from written text.

 

Your mysterious letter doesn't exist. Contemporaries never saw it, (or it would've been recorded as evidence) and neither have archaeologists. Its just as much speculation. I can see where you formed your opinion (how this matters I don't know), but it still isn't proven.

[Germanicus Nero]

And none of it will be proved. It seems to me as if you're presenting yourself and your opinion as more valid than Suetonius. That it what's killign me about this deabte. Gossip monger or not I'd think it wise to believe his and Tacitus opinion over said events than yours and how could you not expect me to. These men lived during the age. Agenda or not they weren't the onyl ones who thought Tiberuis had ahand in it. And Jesus H Christ wtf would Tiberius be pleased a man he needed had been poisoned. Stop and think about that for a second. I have no idea why you would give this villain of a man any sort of benefit of the doubt. He nearly single handedly destroyed the Imperial family.

 

Fascinating, simply fascinating.

 

How you can be so positive he had nothing to do with it is beyond me man. We obvsiuly aren't going to change each others minds but again I can atleast point to a well known source who states he believes and many others that this is what happened. Neither of us can offer any proof but I think Suetonius and Tacitus are closer than anytyhig you;ve produced.

[P.Clodius]

Primus, that was some rebuttle! Germanicus, I urge you to go beyond Graves/Seutonius in analyzing these events. Please read some modern interpretations as mentioned previously in this thread.

[Primus Pilus]

And none of it will be proved. It seems to me as if you're presenting yourself and your opinion as more valid than Suetonius. That it what's killign me about this deabte. Gossip monger or not I'd think it wise to believe his and Tacitus opinion over said events than yours and how could you not expect me to. These men lived during the age. Agenda or not they weren't the onyl ones who thought Tiberuis had ahand in it. And Jesus H Christ wtf would Tiberius be pleased a man he needed had been poisoned. Stop and think about that for a second. I have no idea why you would give this villain of a man any sort of benefit of the doubt. He nearly single handedly destroyed the Imperial family.

 

Fascinating, simply fascinating.

 

How you can be so positive he had nothing to do with it is beyond me man. We obvsiuly aren't going to change each others minds but again I can atleast point to a well known source who states he believes and many others that this is what happened. Neither of us can offer any proof but I think Suetonius and Tacitus are closer than anytyhig you;ve produced.

 

I am not positive he had nothing to do with it, nor should anyone be positive he did. My point is that we can't be sure. I refuse to accept a theory simply because it has existed for a long time. Tiberius very well may have had Germanicus killed, but I see no real proof. Also I never claimed that Tiberius or any ancient source said that Tiberius 'needed' Germanicus'. Don't confuse my argument with others. (Though he was absolutely pivotal in stopping the Rhine revolt and settling the Armenia problem)

 

btw, more from Suetonius.

 

He had a father's affection neither for his own son Drusus nor his adopted son Germanicus, being exasperated at the former's vices; and, in fact, Drusus led a somewhat loose and dissolute life. Therefore, even when he died, Tiberius was not greatly affected, but almost immediately after the funeral returned to his usual routine, forbidding a longer period of mourning. Nay, more, when a deputation from Ilium offered him somewhat belated condolences, he replied with a smile, as if the memory of his bereavement had faded from his mind, that they, too, had his sympathy for the loss of their eminent fellow-citizen Hector. As to Germanicus, he was so far from appreciating him, that he made light of his illustrious deeds as unimportant, and railed at his brilliant victories as ruinous to his country. He even made complaint in the Senate when Germanicus, on the occasion of a sudden and terrible famine, went to Alexandria without consulting him. It is even believed that he caused his death at the hands of Gnaeus Piso, governor of Syria, and some think that when Piso was tried on that charge, he would have produced his instructions, had not Tiberius caused them to be taken from him when Piso privately showed them, and the man himself to be put to death. Because of this the words, "Give us back Germanicus," were posted in many places, and shouted at night all over the city. And Tiberius afterwards strengthened this suspicion by cruelly abusing the wife and children of Germanicus as well.

 

 

Where is the evidence? Even suetonius uses non commital terms such as.. "It is even believed that" and "Some think that". Suetonius is referring to word of mouth speculation 100 years after the fact and admits that he doesn't know for sure.

[Germanicus Nero]

And your basing your opinion on word of mouth from around 2000 years later? Can you hear yourself? Again I've found 2 sources who are arguably the most respected, quoited and used for certainb its of information. If it's your opinion or Suetonius than it's no contest. I can't make this point any clearer. Your opinion will never hold more weight with me than his no matter how well read you think you are.

[Primus Pilus]

And your basing your opinion on word of mouth from around 2000 years later? Can you hear yourself? Again I've found 2 sources who are arguably the most respected, quoited and used for certainb its of information. If it's your opinion or Suetonius than it's no contest. I can't make this point any clearer. Your opinion will never hold more weight with me than his no matter how well read you think you are.

I quoted all the ancient sources and have indicated that they admit that they don't know the truth. I am only repeating that they don't know, why should you?

[Germanicus Nero]

That's the thing I never said I did. I have a belief and mentioned it. But my belief comes from what I would call the best possible source of the time. Where does yours come from and forgive me but re-torting with read a book isn't exactly a difficult argument to make.

[Primus Pilus]

My reply to suggest some books to read was about 10 posts ago. Since then I think I laid out in a fairly clear manner indicating where I'm coming from, whether its agreeable or not.

 

I will, however, restate the position. Disregard all non ancient sources if you want to, that's perfectly fine by me. However, if you read Tacitus, Dio Cassius and Suetonius, each of them indicate that there is suspicion of Piso poisoning Germanicus. Again, none say for sure that he even did it (at least not clearly). Then they indicate that Tiberius may have been involved. If we trust every word they say and that is where the opinion comes from, why not trust exactly what they do say... that they aren't quite sure what happened?

[Primus Pilus]

Apologies I didnt quite answer your question, and you did indicate in part that the ancients aren't quite sure, but that you tend to think they are right. Part of my reason to suggest books to read was to offer up some of the basis for the formation of my opinion. Its difficult for us to argue a theory (which is what we are arguing after all) when we aren't referring to the same source material in total. I can tell you that my opinion is formed from reading the ancient sources, the books mentioned above and some others corresponding to the Augustan era.

[Germanicus Nero]

Again saying this book will change your mind but having yet to provide one excerpt from it that would set me on said course seems like folly and I doubt you'll walk away as you seem the last word, I have a superior intellect sort.