Death of Germanicus

[P.Clodius]

Yes Cinncinatus is a great story. Why the comment about Tiberius! Don't tell me you buy into that Seutonius/Tacitus hogwash do you?

[Germanicus Nero]

He had Germancius whacked. He was young, handsome and able. He was also a patriot who would of restored the republic just like his pimp father would of. Suetonius was da man! lmao I love this forum by the way. Others as eerily fascinated with the Romans as myself!

[P.Clodius]

Tiberius didn't have Germanicus wacked. He suffered because of his death, not because of his life. Don't believe everything you read in the primary sources. Remember, they had an agenda!

[Germanicus Nero]

Well if you can provode a better source than Suetonius I'll read t, hell I probably have anyhow until then I'm going to have to go with his opinion on what happened. Not to mention what's on record that Tiberius did in fact do and it's hard to specualte from any other angles.

 

Curious, are actually defending Tiberius of all people ?

[Primus Pilus]

There is absolutely no historical evidence that Tiberius had Germanicus killed. Germanicus was extremely popular and an effective member of the Imperial ruling system. Tiberius granted him full imperium in the east practically giving him equal power. The later speculation of men such as Suetonius sought to glorify the men they served (Hadrian and the Antonines in his case) by debasing the contributions and personalities of earlier emperors. Tiberius was guilty of other purges of the imperial family, and should be justly villified for giving Sejanus extreme power, but I believe that the death of Germanicus was just an untimely event.

[Germanicus Nero]

"Tiberius granted him full imperium in the east practically giving him equal power."

 

Sources? First I've ever heard of this.

 

Again it's one opinion vs Suetonius'. Again if the choice is an author's opinion who lived around the time of said events or yours I'd think it wise to go with his. I need some sort of legitame literature that atleast suggest this was the case.

[Primus Pilus]

It's established theory that Germanicus had full imperium in the east. From Tacitus:

 

The provinces beyond the sea were thence decreed to Germanicus, with authority superior to all those who obtained provinces by lot, or the nomination of the Prince. But, Tiberius had already taken care to remove from the government of Syria Creticus Silanus, one united to Germanicus in domestic alliance, by having betrothed his daughter to Nero, the eldest son of Germanicus.

[Germanicus]

The I CLAUDIUS series promoted the rumour that Caligula poisened Germanicus. I can't really see how Tiberius would have benefited from his death though, he relyed on the guy.

[Primus Pilus]

You mean Tiberius... Caligula was Germanicus' son. I, Claudius borrowed heavily from Suetonius which is the reason it represents Germanicus being murdered.

[Germanicus]

Yes, no I actually mean Caligula, as a boy. The shows theory was that his syrian wetnurse was a master poisoner, and Caligula was already a devious little brat, so much so that he did away with his own father - crazy I know.

[Augur]

For the earlier "cool it!" thanks to PP, to all the ancient Gods and to all who value civility. Speaking of which, in that last exchange

[Germanicus]

By the way, does anyone seriously consider Mr. Graves' novels, or the wonderful TV series derived from them, to be as authoritive as what we receive directly from the Roman masters?[/quote

 

No Augur, I don't - it was just another of the many theories as to the murderer.

 

I agree with your second fiddle comments regarding Agrippa, and with regard to Agrippa, more to the point is that he was so instrumental in getting and maintaining Augustus power, and yet never seems to have tried to use his influence with the legions to undermine Augustus and steal the purple for himself. A truly rare thing in Roman politics.

[Primus Pilus]

Yes, no I actually mean Caligula, as a boy. The shows theory was that his syrian wetnurse was a master poisoner, and Caligula was already a devious little brat, so much so that he did away with his own father - crazy I know.

Hmm, I've read the novels, but never saw the series. I don't recall this being in the books, but it has been several years.

[P.Clodius]

Augur, Tiberius has been wrongly vilified by history due to Primary Sources with an agenda. These sources wanted to attack the Julio Claudian dynasty. They could not attack Caesar, Augustus or Claudius because they all became gods, doing so would call into question their own "Pietas". So why not attack the people around them, some of the descisions they made etc.... One of those favorites to attack was Tiberius. Remember, he was accused with perversion and corruption. I'm sure, if Tiberius had a sister he'd have been accused of shagging her too. These are all classic examples of ancient character assassination. See my name sake Clodius, Caligula, et al.... In reality Tiberius was an able military commander, and an able administrator. The empire thrived under him. He was trusted by Augustus, given Imperium, Tribunicia Potestas, and effectively became co-ruler during the latter years of the reign of Augustus. The actions of Sejanus cannot be wholey blamed on Tiberius. Imagine this, you lend your car to someone and that someone runs over a pedestrian, is that your fault? Tiberius' motives for leaving Rome were his attempt to hand back some autonomy to the Senate. He was, in the end guilty of being nothing more than a reluctant ruler.

 

http://www.unrv.com/early-empire/final-years.php

The book link on the right hand side of the page is an excellent read for some of you who would like to learn more of Tiberius.

[Primus Pilus]

Also in support of Tiberius, at two points in his career he even attempted to retire from political life, clearly indicating a lack of desire for supreme control. Unfortunately the second of these, his retirement to Capri, allowed the rise of Sejanus, forcing Tiberius' eventual return and institution of the treason trials. Giving Sejanus free reign was a major blunder and certainly impacts Tiberius' legacy, but most of the rumor associated with his reign was done so to assassinate his character.