Ethical Decline And Societal Collapse

[Caesar]

One of the most notable things that marked the fall of the Roman Empire, were the change in attitudes that occured in its decline. It was noticeable for example, that Roman citizens began to lose pride in their empire, and there existed a near complete absence of what we now call nationalism. There also was a sharp increase in alcohol consumption, and a boom of prostitution and crime in major cities. People began to lose their enthusiasm, and when Rome attempted a counter campaign against the Barbarians in northern Gaul, it was badly received by the people, many even protesting or speaking out against the campaign. It is interesting to note the similarity between that, and what is currently occuring in many nations, most notably the United States. A sharp decrease in nationalism in the 1960's, accompanied by sharp rises in crime, drug use, and prostitution, is very similar to what was seen in Rome before its collapse. This, I believe, provides a strong link between cultural decay, and the collapse of civilizations. Does anyone else see this link? What other factors are common between nations in decay? And what could the Romans have done, and what can we do, to end such decay?

[Lost_Warrior]

I see the link. I don't know what we can do about it though.

 

When people no longer care about their state, country, empire, or whatever they no longer try to uphold the standards that made that place great. It happened in Rome, and I see it happening in America too. It seems we are no longer trying to uphold those standards which our country was built on. When this happens, the very foundation of the country begins to crumble and the rest goes from there. It causes discontent all around (and discontent in the military is a main reason why that particular military does poorly) But as much as we might like to stop it, sometimes its just time for a change.

[Ursus]

Prostitution wasn't automatically condemned in pagan societies, nor was it automatically considered a crime. In fact, in the Greek city-state of Corinth, the temple of Aphrodite often employed Courtesans.

 

This serves to illustrate a point. When moderns look back at Ancient Rome, they are usually doing it through an ethical perspective that the Romans themselves didn't have. This may be further complicated by the fact that Rome's alleged vices left to history may have been exaggerated by hostile contemporaries like early Christians.

 

The exact nature of "social decay", in other words, depends on the ethical framework of the observer. ;-) Conservatives were decrying Roman society in the Age of Augustus since Roman society and its mores had evolved somewhat since the early Republic. Yet if we look at the political, economic and cultural power of the Augustan age, Roman society was by no means decayed.

 

For my own part, I think the western empire disintegrated from exhaustion. Constant internal strife, increasing absolutism from government, increasing external threats, plagues and famines, people paying increasing taxes to an increasingly dysfunctional government. They were probably just rather weary of the whole thing, which fed into some of the problems you mentioned above.

[Lost_Warrior]

Could part of the problem in Rome have been religious, since Constantine converted to Christianity and many of the people were pagan?

[Ursus]

There are debates in the temple forum about the role of Christianity in the collapse of Rome.

 

Certainly the rise of a new religion dedicated to erasing other religions and ceating a new cultural reality placed certain stresses on society. But the Byzantine empire which was Christian to the bone survived quite well as a political and military power, so I don't think Christianity was instrumental in the collapse of Rome. To the extent that barbarians adopted Christianity, one could say it became an instrument of Roman or Byzantine power...

[Jimbow]

I think it would also depend if you see the USA as an empire, as opposed to a nation. Not only did the Roman Empire and Republic see concern through its whole history at the erosion of values, but my older relatives see concern in the erosion of values from the 1940's

 

I personally see it as sentimentality for what was likely a mythical age anyway, by and large. Prior to Prohibition anything went in the US, and Europe. My own grandparents would be at the docks to get their fish at 5am, and they used to laugh about how they got high from passing the opium dens there - and that's 1930's northern England! When something is criminalised it seems to become a common perception that it was always wrong.

 

Violent protest is also perceived to be a fairly modern phenomenon, but the UK saw race and political riots in the 1930's. Quite often when Roosevelt and Churchill appeared on Glasgow cinema screens during WW2 they threw things at it and booed, but when Stalin came on he got a standing ovation. The modern media has a very textbook view of history and attitudes by and large, and the textbooks were a great source of rules to follow for the Romans, I'm sure. People never *really* change imho. Fear of what you've described is often a means for politicians to get what they want, so they promote it. No doubt Roman senators did likewise.

 

Jim.

[Caesar]

It is an interesting point you bring up. It is true, that there has always been a subculture, eroding away at mainstream values and traditions. And you are right, when it comes to people in the modern age criminalizing all modern bad behavior that in the past was considered okay. For example, in the 1920's and 30's, many respectable people were involved with Opium and other stimulants, but at that time, it was not considered to be harmful, and therefore was for the most part not considered "subcultural." However, what to me indicates ethical erosion is when we realize that certain behavior is bad, and yet we continue doing it. And drug use has risen in the past few decades, even with the information we have now!

 

IMHO, there are most deffinetly periods of greatness, and periods of depression in civilization and history. Compare the era of the Romans to the dark ages for example. While the Romans commited many "barbaric" acts in their time, the actual amount of death and destruction was on a much greater scale after the collapse. I think this can also be applied to modern times, with our world experiencing similar changes in history, just in a different, and more subtle way.