No drums in the Roman world

[eborius]

The basic issue that any archaeologist is all too aware of is that 'absence of evidence' although possibily indicative is not necessarily conclusive 'evidence of absence'.

 

However you define it 'drum' is not a term which the Roman world used and those it did use can and have been interpreted in a variety of ways. Agreed that often tympana is equated to tabmorines but on current evidence we cannot be 'totally' certain of this interpretation.

 

The following quote, adapted from R.Shepherd (1793) translation of the 2nd C AD Macedonian Polyaenus: Stratagems - BOOK 1, Chapters 1-26, indicates one interpretation which seems to ahve been made but I have been unable to determine if it is replicated in more modern tranlations:

 

Dionysus.

 

In order to gain admittance into the cities during his Indian expedition, Dionysus dressed his troops in white linen and deer skins, instead of gleaming armour. Their spears were adorned with ivy, and the points of the spears were hidden under a thyrsus. His orders were given by cymbals and drums, instead of trumpets; and intoxicating his enemies with wine, he engaged them in dancing and Bacchic orgies. Such were the stratagems which that general practised in his conquest of India, and the rest of Asia.

 

...

[eborius]

The basic issue that any archaeologist is all too aware of is that 'absence of evidence' although possibily indicative is not necessarily conclusive 'evidence of absence'.

 

However you define it 'drum' is not a term which the Roman world used and those it did use can and have been interpreted in a variety of ways. Agreed that often tympana is equated to tabmorines but on current evidence we cannot be 'totally' certain of this interpretation.

 

The following quote, adapted from R.Shepherd (1793) translation of the 2nd C AD Macedonian Polyaenus: Stratagems - BOOK 1, Chapters 1-26, indicates one interpretation which seems to ahve been made but I have been unable to determine if it is replicated in more modern tranlations:

 

Dionysus.

 

In order to gain admittance into the cities during his Indian expedition, Dionysus dressed his troops in white linen and deer skins, instead of gleaming armour. Their spears were adorned with ivy, and the points of the spears were hidden under a thyrsus. His orders were given by cymbals and drums, instead of trumpets; and intoxicating his enemies with wine, he engaged them in dancing and Bacchic orgies. Such were the stratagems which that general practised in his conquest of India, and the rest of Asia.

 

...

[eborius]

The basic issue that any archaeologist is all too aware of is that 'absence of evidence' although possibily indicative is not necessarily conclusive 'evidence of absence'.

 

However you define it 'drum' is not a term which the Roman world used and those it did use can and have been interpreted in a variety of ways. Agreed that often tympana is equated to tabmorines but on current evidence we cannot be 'totally' certain of this interpretation.

 

The following quote, adapted from R.Shepherd (1793) translation of the 2nd C AD Macedonian Polyaenus: Stratagems - BOOK 1, Chapters 1-26, indicates one interpretation which seems to ahve been made but I have been unable to determine if it is replicated in more modern tranlations:

 

Dionysus.

 

In order to gain admittance into the cities during his Indian expedition, Dionysus dressed his troops in white linen and deer skins, instead of gleaming armour. Their spears were adorned with ivy, and the points of the spears were hidden under a thyrsus. His orders were given by cymbals and drums, instead of trumpets; and intoxicating his enemies with wine, he engaged them in dancing and Bacchic orgies. Such were the stratagems which that general practised in his conquest of India, and the rest of Asia.

 

...

[eborius]

The basic issue that any archaeologist is all too aware of is that 'absence of evidence' although possibily indicative is not necessarily conclusive 'evidence of absence'.

 

However you define it 'drum' is not a term which the Roman world used and those it did use can and have been interpreted in a variety of ways. Agreed that often tympana is equated to tabmorines but on current evidence we cannot be 'totally' certain of this interpretation.

 

The following quote, adapted from R.Shepherd (1793) translation of the 2nd C AD Macedonian Polyaenus: Stratagems - BOOK 1, Chapters 1-26, indicates one interpretation which seems to ahve been made but I have been unable to determine if it is replicated in more modern tranlations:

 

Dionysus.

 

In order to gain admittance into the cities during his Indian expedition, Dionysus dressed his troops in white linen and deer skins, instead of gleaming armour. Their spears were adorned with ivy, and the points of the spears were hidden under a thyrsus. His orders were given by cymbals and drums, instead of trumpets; and intoxicating his enemies with wine, he engaged them in dancing and Bacchic orgies. Such were the stratagems which that general practised in his conquest of India, and the rest of Asia.

 

...

 

 

 

Thanks Melvadius for the Dionysus passage, but again this is a Greek story and seems to suggest the Greeks adopting Indian ways, probably through the use of Indian allies against other Indian states, rather than the Greeks themselves adopting drums and cymbals. Certainly the passage shows that this was a strange & unusual thing, likely seen by Greeks as the adoption of 'barbarian' ways and therefore quoted as a criticism. Such instruments may well have been a normal part of ritual & military equipment, and maybe such things came to the west from there, but it was long after the Greek or Roman period if it was so. Therefore the story is hardly relevent. Again I say that the vast majority of the evidence, or total lack of such, is that the drum was not employed in the Classical world, because it was; except in such novelty stories such as the one quoted;

unknown, & certainly not employed by the Roman army.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence archaeological maxim is NOT apposite to this case, for the TOTAL none representation of recognisable drums on the military monuments

tells ABSOLUTELY that such drums DID NOT EXIST as far as Rome is concerned.

As for the Byzantine 'tympanarius', the date of such would be useful, as the Roman army was VERY different thing by the period we call Byzantine from what it had been at the period of Empire-building, & certainly changes in gear, and nomenclature, had taken place. So we cannot

assume that what was available say in 10th century C.E. Byzantium; when contact with Seljuk

armies may have made drums, for instance, familiar, and possibly even employed by Romans;

was similarly the case many centuries earlier, against all the contrary evidence.

[Melvadius]

Thanks Melvadius for the Dionysus passage, but again this is a Greek story ...

 

eborius I would refer you back to your original statement '...there is NO evidence for the use of drums ANYWHERE in the Roman world.'

 

I would just point out that by writing in the second century AD within part of the Roman empire the Dionysus passage would seem to indicate the the use of drums WAS known and to some extent probably used within the Roman world even if not noticably within the military of the 'Principate' period - by some arguments used elsewhere on this site Byzantiuum was STILL the Roman world.

 

I will grant that the use of specific drum forms including those developed in the Renaissance were not part of your original statement so if that is what you wish to discuss it maybe better addressed in a separate thread.

[caldrail]

There is a mention in Plutarch's account of Crassus in whih he mentions that the Parthians at Carrhae did not use horns or trumpets like the Romans, but instead used drums with bells attached, more to do with making an intimidating noise than transfer orders I imagine.

[eborius]

The Plutarch quote about the Parthians supports an eastern origin & employment of 'drum-like' noise making instruments, the main purpose of which, as with the later kettle-drums, was to intimidate an enemy. The 'with bells attached' bit still raises doubts as to what form these might have taken. Would fully developed drums require the addition of bells?

Still, the instruments may have led to the 'tympany' of the later Roman-Byzantines.

However, as I commented last time, what was available in Byzantium in the 5th-56th-7th centuries did not have to be around for the Romans of the 1st-2nd-3rd centuries.

Many organisational changes during the Roman imperial centuries. The Emperors of the High Empire, say Hadrian or Marcus Aurelius, would hardly recognise the armies of Justinian or Heraclius, for instance, as Roman, if they had been able to travel into the future.

commentators sometimes tend to telescope past times too much together, not allowing for the significant changes which occur over generations.

Again, items that may appear in literary circles, i.e. in elitist Greek/Roman, need not have been widely known to the general population.

I still submit that 'drums' as we would recognise the term DID NOT EXIST in the Roman, or Greek, world, and were not employed by the Legions or any part of the Roman army, OR THE EVIDENCE WOULD BE WIDESPREAD AND OBVIOUS ON THE MONUMENTS. Special pleading to suggest their use, using flimsy and unsure 'evidence' is not convincing!

[eborius]

The Plutarch quote about the Parthians supports an eastern origin & employment of 'drum-like' noise making instruments, the main purpose of which, as with the later kettle-drums, was to intimidate an enemy. The 'with bells attached' bit still raises doubts as to what form these might have taken. Would fully developed drums require the addition of bells?

Still, the instruments may have led to the 'tympany' of the later Roman-Byzantines.

However, as I commented last time, what was available in Byzantium in the 5th-56th-7th centuries did not have to be around for the Romans of the 1st-2nd-3rd centuries.

Many organisational changes during the Roman imperial centuries. The Emperors of the High Empire, say Hadrian or Marcus Aurelius, would hardly recognise the armies of Justinian or Heraclius, for instance, as Roman, if they had been able to travel into the future.

commentators sometimes tend to telescope past times too much together, not allowing for the significant changes which occur over generations.

Again, items that may appear in literary circles, i.e. in elitist Greek/Roman, need not have been widely known to the general population.

I still submit that 'drums' as we would recognise the term DID NOT EXIST in the Roman, or Greek, world, and were not employed by the Legions or any part of the Roman army, OR THE EVIDENCE WOULD BE WIDESPREAD AND OBVIOUS ON THE MONUMENTS. Special pleading to suggest their use, using flimsy and unsure 'evidence' is not convincing!

[caldrail]

Plutarch does describe how the drum is constructed and indeed appears to understand exactly what a drum is, even with bells attached.

[Melvadius]

Plutarch does describe how the drum is constructed and indeed appears to understand exactly what a drum is, even with bells attached.

 

Good point in fact the Loeb 1928 edition of On Superstition by Plutarch also makes several references to the use of 'beaten' drums including the fact that '...tigers, they say, surrounded by the sounds of beaten drums go utterly mad...'

 

This level of noise would seem to indicate a familiarity and therefore probable existence and use of drums within the Empire which could produce a somewhat louder sound level than would be possible from simply tapping a tamborine.

 

 

It does make me wonder given the way in which the border swept back and forward over the area several times during the Roman period if auxilliary units raised in the Eastern provinces may also have made use of beaten drums for signalling or at least entertainment. It also make me wonder about precisely what is intended to be represented by some of the items which are seen lying scattered around in the West Wall mural from the Dura-Europos synagogue.

[caldrail]

Clearly musical instruments weren't highly valued back then.