No drums in the Roman world

[eborius]

Hi, this is Eborius. I have just discovered this site, and noted a remark asking about the use of drums etc. for signalling in the Roman Army. Though regularly shown in Hollywood epics, including the suposedly well-researched `Gladiator`, there is NO evidence for the use of drums ANYWHERE in the Roman world. There is no rank or title for a drummer recorded, nor are there any depictions, i.e. on Trajan's column where they surely aught to be present if such existed, nor on any of the numerous military tombstones or other monuments. Therefore it is clear that ALL signals during battles etc. had to have been transmitted via the well evidenced varoius wind instruments, which in any case were much more capable than any drums at complicated signals.

[Melvadius]

I would tend to agree that there is no hard evidence for the use of drums in the military however there is a lot of pictorial evidence for something which could be a hand drum being used in civilian dance settings.

 

The question mark is over whether the tympanum was simply a Roman tamborine as some contend or due to it's size in several mosaic and other depictions if it could also have been played like the Irish bodhran as a hand drum.

 

By extension if it could be played in this way and with the mix of cultures and lifestyles in the Roman military then it is just about conceivable that even if not widespread the use of 'drums' could have crept into use in some units.

 

However this is speculative and not verifiable so I will probably continue to quietly snigger at the Hollywood depctions of massed drummers until proven otherwise

[caldrail]

Drums were not used by the legions, not only for cultural preference, but also becuase the noise would prevent orders from being heard. Troops marched to the 'pace stick' which a centurion would strike against a shield or whatever, a sharp and audible sound with less echo and resonance than a drum.

[DecimusCaesar]

Drums were not used by the legions, not only for cultural preference, but also becuase the noise would prevent orders from being heard. Troops marched to the 'pace stick' which a centurion would strike against a shield or whatever, a sharp and audible sound with less echo and resonance than a drum.

 

This is true - being able to hear orders was importnat for the Legion in combat. As far as musical instruments go in battle, the Romans did have a cornicen and a tubicen (essentially a hornblower and a trumpeter) on the battlefield.

[Virgil61]

Hi, this is Eborius. I have just discovered this site, and noted a remark asking about the use of drums etc. for signalling in the Roman Army. Though regularly shown in Hollywood epics, including the suposedly well-researched `Gladiator`, there is NO evidence for the use of drums ANYWHERE in the Roman world. There is no rank or title for a drummer recorded, nor are there any depictions, i.e. on Trajan's column where they surely aught to be present if such existed, nor on any of the numerous military tombstones or other monuments. Therefore it is clear that ALL signals during battles etc. had to have been transmitted via the well evidenced varoius wind instruments, which in any case were much more capable than any drums at complicated signals.

 

Well there is evidence given by several classical archaeologists put forth in the classical journal Britannia where they speculate on two finds at two Roman army digs. These were found along with saddle and shield covers at the Flavian army site near Carlisle with a very similar cover (suggesting some commonality of design) found at a site in The Netherlands (Vechten). They were made for double-sided drums rather than the 'drummer boy' type. Two similar items found in two Roman military camps suggest they were used by some legions at some time but of course don't give up for what.

 

I think the Britannia issue is from the 90s, I have it somewhere.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Virgil61

[eborius]

Hi, this is Eborius. I have just discovered this site, and noted a remark asking about the use of drums etc. for signalling in the Roman Army. Though regularly shown in Hollywood epics, including the suposedly well-researched `Gladiator`, there is NO evidence for the use of drums ANYWHERE in the Roman world. There is no rank or title for a drummer recorded, nor are there any depictions, i.e. on Trajan's column where they surely aught to be present if such existed, nor on any of the numerous military tombstones or other monuments. Therefore it is clear that ALL signals during battles etc. had to have been transmitted via the well evidenced varoius wind instruments, which in any case were much more capable than any drums at complicated signals.

 

Well there is evidence given by several classical archaeologists put forth in the classical journal Britannia where they speculate on two finds at two Roman army digs. These were found along with saddle and shield covers at the Flavian army site near Carlisle with a very similar cover (suggesting some commonality of design) found at a site in The Netherlands (Vechten). They were made for double-sided drums rather than the 'drummer boy' type. Two similar items found in two Roman military camps suggest they were used by some legions at some time but of course don't give up for what.

 

I think the Britannia issue is from the 90s, I have it somewhere.

 

 

Eborius replies: I do not know the evidence of 'Britannia' journal you mention, but would question the interpretation of finds as military drums, given the overwealming anti-evidence. The `tamborines' of mosaics belong to street performers and have no relavence for military affairs. Drums as we are familia with them in the warfare seem only to have come to the ken of the western world in the crusader period, and were associated with the Seljuks.

It is probable that these decsended from earlier times, possibly from further east, China perhaps. Again if these had been in use by the Persians or Parthian enemies of Rome, this would had been noted by the classical sources, & surely have been adopted by the Roman army.

As this did clearly not occur, I maintain that such instruments seem not to be employed by the Romans, indeed the Roman world seems totally unaware of them. The examples quoted by the journal would have to be `prooved' to have been drums, rather than buckets or similar, to

outweigh the negative evidence, and to interpret them as such, and use this as evidence for the use of drums in the Legions etc. is surely extremely speculative. As an archaeologist myself I am aware just how difficult it can be to identify the purpose of site finds, especially when they are fragmentary, decayed and unique or nearly so. One is always desirous to allot a use to the found objects, and so may make speculative interpretations

on slight evidence. I would still say that if drums had indeed been in use by the Roman army at any time there would be unambiguous evidence for them, in the classical writers & among the numerous military monuments, trophies etc. That there are NO such traces speaks most tellingly against even the knowledge of such things, & most strongly against their use .

[eborius]

Hi, this is Eborius again. I must respond to the remarks on tamborines. It is extremely speculative to interpret the mosaics as fully skinned drums like the Irish instrument.

Moreover these mosaics at Pompeii most famously, are most likey versions of earlier Greek pictures, so may not show Roman street life at all, but possibly merely theatrical scenes.

To take such poor indicators & extend them to suggest fully skinned drum use in ANY part of the classical world is going far beyond their value. To then take this, along with some archaeological fragments that may have been mis-interpreted, as evidence for the use of drums in the Roman military is to go much beyond the evidence. I reassert that IF such drums had played any part in the Roman world, especially the military, depictions of them would be all over the monuments, i.e. Trajan's column & the numerous arches & trophies & tombstones, just as they are when they truly became a part of the European military, from the 16th-17th centuries!

[Melvadius]

I think the Britannia issue is from the 90s, I have it somewhere.

 

From a quick hunt the article may be Carlisle: Excavation of a Section of the Annexe Ditch of the First Flavian Fort, 1990 by I.D. Caruana in Britannia November 1992 23 : pp 45-109.

[Melvadius]

Hi, this is Eborius again. I must respond to the remarks on tamborines. It is extremely speculative to interpret the mosaics as fully skinned drums like the Irish instrument.

Moreover these mosaics at Pompeii most famously, are most likey versions of earlier Greek pictures, so may not show Roman street life at all, but possibly merely theatrical scenes.

To take such poor indicators & extend them to suggest fully skinned drum use in ANY part of the classical world is going far beyond their value. To then take this, along with some archaeological fragments that may have been mis-interpreted, as evidence for the use of drums in the Roman military is to go much beyond the evidence. I reassert that IF such drums had played any part in the Roman world, especially the military, depictions of them would be all over the monuments, i.e. Trajan's column & the numerous arches & trophies & tombstones, just as they are when they truly became a part of the European military, from the 16th-17th centuries!

 

There was no indication until now that you wished to restrict discussion to 'fully skinned' drums.

 

As already stated there is ample evidence for the presence and use of tympanum within the Roman world which means they would probably have been known about to some within the Roman military even if not directly used in military contexts.

 

 

BTW the Roman terms for drummers which you also queried are:

 

Pitulus : drummer on ships used to set the pace for the rowers

 

Tympanarios : drummer; attested in the Byzantine army.

[caldrail]

There is of course an option that a legion now and then employed a drummer for the purposes of generating loud noises in the charge. That had been the case in Republican times but set aside as standard practice in the imperial. Widespread use of drums is not illustrated in monumental art, or any other in Roman archaeology, whereas we do see evidence of those instruments we normally associate with the Roman military.

 

Perhaps the soldiers merely enjoyed camp music rather than hear drums on the field of battle?

Edited May 17, 2012 by caldrail

[Maty]

If the army chose not to use drums, it was not because they did not know of them. There are several references to drums in the ancient world (the Germans were rather keen on them and the priests of Cymbele used a tambourine type drum.)

 

I also remembered and looked up a quote about Leucippus which is totally wrong about the shape of the world (drum-shaped) but the rest of his cosmology is spot on.

 

'The worlds are formed when atoms fall into the void and are entangled with one another ; and from their motion as they increase in bulk arises the substance of the stars. The sun revolves in a larger circle round the moon. The earth rides steadily, being whirled about the centre ; its shape is like that of a drum. ' (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers Leucippus 6.30)

 

Pausanias somewhere mentions that the Romans like to march to battle with trumpets, but the Spartans preferred flutes and harps. So wind and strings, but no percussion.

[parthianbow]

Going slightly off topic:

 

@Melvadius: I think the term pitulus is more accurately described as 'timebeater'. That's what Michael Pitassi (The Navies of Rome) calls it. Also, there were no drums used on Roman ships (or Greek ones). That's another Hollywood introduction. Instead, the rowers' speed/stroke rhythm was regulated by voice, or by a musician (on Greek ships, a flautist).

[Melvadius]

Going slightly off topic:

 

@Melvadius: I think the term pitulus is more accurately described as 'timebeater'. That's what Michael Pitassi (The Navies of Rome) calls it. Also, there were no drums used on Roman ships (or Greek ones). That's another Hollywood introduction. Instead, the rowers' speed/stroke rhythm was regulated by voice, or by a musician (on Greek ships, a flautist).

 

My fault I lifted the reference from someone I have usually found fairly reliable

 

A correction is rarely off topic.

[eborius]

Thanks to parthianbow in remarks on ships. Yes timebeater does not mean drummer. I would contend that 'tympany', especially `tamborine' types are nor certainly represented in ancient artworks, but what are shown seem much more like castenets, in any case of little or no use for military purposes. Remember these are 'civilian' scenes, likely Greek and theatrical. Leucippus also is probably not relevent, as he was a Greek not a Roman, and the columns of temples etc. were composed of 'drum' shaped sections, is one SURE it is to an instrument he was comparing the world, or does the greek really refer to the columnar shape instead. I am sure this must have been the case, for I still aver that IF fully developed skined drums had been known in the ancient world, and only such can be really named drums, there would be abundant pictorial evidence, and as this it TOTALLY ABSENT, then undoubtably this means drums as we understand them must have been unknown in the Greek world, and the Roman empire. The speculative interpretation of the Carlisle items etc. as drums does not figure, as these things cannot be proved to be instruments, they were more likely water or wine containers or somesuch, to call them drums is against ALL other evidence.

Bands are depicted in amphitheatre scenes, including wind/water organs, surely drums would have been well employed for the Games, again I say they are NOT seen, so DID NOT EXIST.

I think drums have a far eastern origin, and only appeared in the west with the Seljuk Turks in the 9th-10th century.

Edited May 30, 2012 by eborius

[Melvadius]

The basic issue that any archaeologist is all too aware of is that 'absence of evidence' although possibily indicative is not necessarily conclusive 'evidence of absence'.

 

However you define it 'drum' is not a term which the Roman world used and those it did use can and have been interpreted in a variety of ways. Agreed that often tympana is equated to tabmorines but on current evidence we cannot be 'totally' certain of this interpretation.

 

The following quote, adapted from R.Shepherd (1793) translation of the 2nd C AD Macedonian Polyaenus: Stratagems - BOOK 1, Chapters 1-26, indicates one interpretation which seems to ahve been made but I have been unable to determine if it is replicated in more modern tranlations:

 

Dionysus.

 

In order to gain admittance into the cities during his Indian expedition, Dionysus dressed his troops in white linen and deer skins, instead of gleaming armour. Their spears were adorned with ivy, and the points of the spears were hidden under a thyrsus. His orders were given by cymbals and drums, instead of trumpets; and intoxicating his enemies with wine, he engaged them in dancing and Bacchic orgies. Such were the stratagems which that general practised in his conquest of India, and the rest of Asia.

 

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