Salute

[cinzia8]

 

Why not fudge the issue slightly Cinza? Say something like 'Having been given his orders, the tribune responded with a stiff formal salute, and departed.'

 

 

I like Maty's idea, but something about the wording doesn't seem right.

 

Try this wording, instead: "...the tribune responded with a firm military salute, ...."

 

 

 

guy also known as gaius

 

"Does a "firm military salute" conjure the modern salute in one's mind? Presently, I have

 

 

[guy]

 

[caldrail]

Aren't we guilty of assuming a strict and precise ritual in the modern manner? The reason I suggest something less rigid is because the writers of Roman times give us a mixed picture of legionary behaviour. In some circumstances absolute obedience is expected, everyone must know their place, yet in other circumstances there's far less structure to military life. This is of course where comparisons to the modern day fail in that we're dealing with a foreign culture from two thousand years ago.

 

As I mentioned elsewhere the legion wasn't simply a military entity that existed apart from society in the way we usually think of today. The structure of a Roman legion, whilst modified by experience and evelopment, remained an encapsulation of their own society. It really did have a class system that reflected Roman values.

 

I have to concede that the manuals of the Roman military have not survived, so in that respect, our information is limited. What occurs to me though is that nowhere I casn think of does a classical source mention legionaries saluting in the proper or [/i]improper[/i] manner, as if there's no no actual standard to apply, rather that the honour or disghonour expressed is the important factor. We immediately think of a hand or arm gesture - but that excludes other possibilities such as a curt nod of the head, or kneeling for instance, though I'd prefer not to get into speculation over some sort of 'Senate Of Silly Salutes' contest.

 

The only reason I 'm persisting with this point of view is that we seem to be limiting our ideas to something more relevant to our own experience and customs derived since the Roman period. By focusing on this we might be ignoring a real possibility.

[Melvadius]

<SNIP>

I have to concede that the manuals of the Roman military have not survived, so in that respect, our information is limited. What occurs to me though is that nowhere I casn think of does a classical source mention legionaries saluting in the proper or [/i]improper[/i] manner, as if there's no no actual standard to apply, rather that the honour or disghonour expressed is the important factor. We immediately think of a hand or arm gesture - but that excludes other possibilities such as a curt nod of the head, or kneeling for instance, though I'd prefer not to get into speculation over some sort of 'Senate Of Silly Salutes' contest.

<SNIP>

 

 

In one of the first posts on this topic Maty quoted a couple of examples of 'proper' and 'improper' salutes:

"One day, as Vespasian left his quarters, a few soldiers who stood near, instead of using the usual form with which they would salute their legate [legionary commander], suddenly saluted him as Emperor." Tacitus Histories 2.80

 

"Nor is any thing done without such a signal; and in the morning the soldiery go every one to their centurions, and these centurions to their tribunes, to salute them." Josephus Wars of the Jews bk 5.2 'On the Roman army'.

There is one aspect of this which we all seem to have overlooked and Caldrail's post has reminded me of.

 

In civilian Roman society (which has continued to some extent into modern Italian society) there was a strong tradition of client relationships in which lesser individuals were expected to be on 'call' to those with more power - visiting their homes in the mornign and waitign to be seen. I wonder if the military could have operated on a similar basis, particularly since several of the auxilliary units in the early Principate were recruited from 'client' kingdoms under the command of their own nobels.

 

In these circumstances the 'salute' describe by both Tacitus and Josephus may make more sense if it took the form of a traditional 'client' relationship where you were expected to be available for you patron's commands/ guidance therefore as Maty has suggested keep it simple and mainly verbal or at least ambiguous:

 

Salute/ hail - 'Tribune', 'Centurio', etc

Vale/ goodbye - 'Tribune', 'Centurio', etc

 

Would work as greetings/ farewells and if your characters are agreeing to do something then 'certainly' or 'of course' - 'Tribune', 'Centurio', etc

may fit the bill.

[cinzia8]

Guy: First let me say that the book is historical fiction, but in a true testimony to the past and the present-- it most likely will earn an X rating. <g> The heroine is not Juliana, but Arria is close and although she does not quiver for Severus, she does elsewhere with a Frank.

 

 

I think I will take the general consensus and use "Of course." Severus shouted with a vigorous salute as he braced his body for duty.

 

Does "shouted" sound too strong if you're right in front of someone? Perhaps, "Of course!" Severus replied ...

 

 

No one commented about the Salutatio of Diogmites that I posted earlier. Is this too obscure or solitary?

 

Thanks you guys for your insight. It really helps a lot. Feel free to share your preference if willing.

 

Cinzia

[GhostOfClayton]

Does "shouted" sound too strong if you're right in front of someone? Perhaps, "Of course!" Severus replied ...

 

Barked? Military men tend to 'bark'.

[cinzia8]

One last thought: <g>

 

 

I trust in the advice I've read here because I know less, but this quote still raises a question in my mind and the other I posted about Diogenites.

 

Nor is any thing done without such a signal; and in the morning the soldiery go every one to their centurions, and these centurions to their tribunes, to salute them." Josephus Wars of the Jews bk 5.2 'On the Roman army'.

 

Surely there is a difference in the Latin concept of signal and greeting? If one were writing a modern day account about military life would one necessarily describe the precise action of the salute? The writer might take it for granted that his/her audience knows what "salute" means.

 

Even when non military people greet one another often it is with a wave or a handshake (Asians nod their heads). In a disciplined setting with rank and authority, I would expect no less.

 

However, because of the lack of evidence, a debatable point. I will remain ambiguous as recommended.

 

Clayton, I did consider "bark" but Severus is talking to Aetius, so if he were an older centurion, perhaps, but he is a young aide and diplomatic spy. He's smooth. <g>

 

Thanks all.

Cinzia