Lost_Warrior Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Certainly he is prominent in history but it isn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pompeius magnus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 In an answer to Germanicus answer of my post since i am just too lazy to move my mouse up to the quote button. If Caesar truly was a believer in the republic he would have volunteered himself into exile, even though it would have been unfair. To save the republic that was the only option, though as we have talked about before it was not a feasible option with the massive territory Rome had gained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentinian Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Pompeius is right...the Republic could not be saved, however it seems to be evident that what made Caesar the great leader of men that he was, was the fact that he did not want to be the King of Rome. By the time of his invasion the Republic was hopelessly corrupt, because of the greedy Senators...and you cant say that he wanted to appease the Senate because he was a populares...the people were Caesar's ally. If Caesar had not march the massive Senatorial army which was being massed would have crushed him and Rome would have deterioated even further. If there was anything wrong with what he did it was marching into the Senator's trap with his back unprotected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pompeius magnus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Looks like I am alone in my defense of the republic, even though I greatly admire Gaius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.Clodius Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Caesar was given tribumcia potestas for term of life that made him inviolable. Â Â Not sure about that. I'm pretty sure that was Octavian's political coup! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germanicus Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 I can imagine Pompey thinking "...I woulda, I coulda, I shoulda, goddamn Cato..." as he sailed to Egypt after Pharsulus. Â Â I love this Virgil61 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted June 5, 2005 Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 Roman politics can�t be understood outside the client-patron set of relationships that seemed to define everything in Rome, from normal social interactions to the spirit of their pagan religions. The competing leadership groups were the patrons in this scenario, and the nebulous mass of voters were the clients. The clients strove to vote their patrons in exchange for receiving favors from the patrons once in office. Both leadership factions claimed to serve Rome in their own way. They were a government theoretically *for* the people, but they were never a government *of* the people.  Interesting article I ran across that suggests a step back from the long accepted notion of client-patron relationships in the Republic. Not an endorsement, but it makes for either interesting reading on the subject or an addition to your "more than I'll ever want to know" file.  http://www.ucpress.edu/scan/ca-e/172/morst...in-marx.172.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favonius Cornelius Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 If General Schoomaker ordered me right now to march with him on Washington and take over the city, killing my fellow Americans whom I am serving, I would not do it. Â Â Felix, would you say that opinion is shared by all your brothers in arms? Lets say hypothetically that Bush claimed that terrorists were running rampant in some American town and it had to be bombed, or some people killed. Would your brothers follow orders without asking questions? What if they were under orders to apprehend rioters or protestors? What if you were asked to fire on protestors? Â I am not trying to be provocative, I am honestly curious about your opinions on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princeps Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Despite my total admiration for him, I voted tyrant. I think the reasons are pretty obvious and I'm suprised most have voted in his favour. I'll expand on my reasoning when I finish work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 If General Schoomaker ordered me right now to march with him on Washington and take over the city, killing my fellow Americans whom I am serving, I would not do it. Â Â Felix, would you say that opinion is shared by all your brothers in arms? Lets say hypothetically that Bush claimed that terrorists were running rampant in some American town and it had to be bombed, or some people killed. Would your brothers follow orders without asking questions? What if they were under orders to apprehend rioters or protestors? What if you were asked to fire on protestors? Â I am not trying to be provocative, I am honestly curious about your opinions on this. I returned from Iraq early last year after a reserve call-up, I spent 9 years at Bragg active duty and keep in close contact with several friends. I don't think many would actively engage in something like the hypothesis he stated [i know it was speculative but Schoomaker is a pretty good leader, he was CDR of USASOC in the 90's when I was on Bragg]. Â Apprehending rioters and protesters is a completely different issue. This was actually done during the riots in D.C. in 1968 by a brigade of the 82d Airborne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Marcellus Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 If General Schoomaker ordered me right now to march with him on Washington and take over the city, killing my fellow Americans whom I am serving, I would not do it. Â Â Felix, would you say that opinion is shared by all your brothers in arms? Lets say hypothetically that Bush claimed that terrorists were running rampant in some American town and it had to be bombed, or some people killed. Would your brothers follow orders without asking questions? What if they were under orders to apprehend rioters or protestors? What if you were asked to fire on protestors? Â I am not trying to be provocative, I am honestly curious about your opinions on this. Â I returned from Iraq early last year after a reserve call-up, I spent 9 years at Bragg active duty and keep in close contact with several friends. I don't think many would actively engage in something like the hypothesis he stated [i know it was speculative but Schoomaker is a pretty good leader, he was CDR of USASOC in the 90's when I was on Bragg]. Â Apprehending rioters and protesters is a completely different issue. This was actually done during the riots in D.C. in 1968 by a brigade of the 82d Airborne. I cannot speak for all my brothers in arms on that subject. No. But from what I know of the ones I was close to I just don't believe they would take part in something like that. If terrorists were running rampant in the city it would be the national guards job to quell that. That is part of their charter. If I were ordered to fight terrorists in an American City while on Active Duty, I would. I think with today's media I would be well aware of the situation though. Romans didn't have that luxury. I would not fight the terrorists and then support my leaders' decision to march on Washington and displace the President or dissolve congress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Marcellus Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Looks like I am alone in my defense of the republic, even though I greatly admire Gaius. I too defend the republic. You'll have to scroll back to see my arguments. I was going on for awhile with Augur. The problem in defending the republic is that it eventually failed and was supplanted by the empire. And when the empire came into being things definitely improved. So yes, obviously the empire at its height was better than the republic at its end. Â What we need is a thread entitled "Which was better at its height? Republic or Empire" I like the consular army system. Rotating command responsibility would mitigate some of the potential of a renegade general using his army for personal gain. Although the system in the end failed, it was a brilliant concept and in a perfect world better than anything the empire had to offer. This is one reason I would choose republic over empire under the new thread title. And there's my underlying affinity for representative bodies governing nations. Though how well they represented could be disputed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 If terrorists were running rampant in the city it would be the national guards job to quell that. That is part of their charter. I'll add that while the National Guard traditionally handles civil disturbances, under Title 32 of the Code of Federal Regulations, civilian authorities can request the use of active duty military forces to assist them (as in the 1968 riots). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pompeius magnus Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 can you talk about this in the after hours area, it is drifting away from my intention of this topic. Â Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentinian Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Going back to whoever had tthe army makes the rules....Caesar capitalised on the whole private citizen army idea which Marius first used. He payed troops to fight for him and paid for their food, clothing, armour etc...and so after a few years and a few successful campaigns...he had quite effectively created his own army completely loyal to him...and slightly anti-senate because they were mostly plebeian and what normal plebeian liked the senate...i mean really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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