Nazi Stealth Fighter

[Ursus]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090625-hitlers-stealth-fighter-plane.html

[caesar novus]

What aspect of that story interests you? I seem to recall that old documentary as slow paced and not as good as others in it's class of Nazi leading edge engineering. Not as bad as some that bordered on science fiction, but there was a particularly good one about 2 hours long that covered many such advanced Nazi aircraft designs. Probably shown on History Military or Discovery Military channels about twice a year.

 

This makes me nostalgic for "real" documentaries, which are virtually never shown anymore on National Geographic, History, or Arts&Entertainment. It's just those "nowcasting" reality shows (whatever they are called) where cameramen follow blue collar drama queen workers doing somewhat adventurous jobs like lumberjacks or offroad truck drivers or state troopers. Oh, that and things like pawn shops and auctions are wildly topping the ratings. Military themes seem banned in favor of handbag fights by bluecollar toughs. Only the somewhat dry Smithsonian channel seems to buck the trend here.

 

Or are you thinking of the technology content? I'm fascinated by German technology, both now and WW2. My last visits to England centered on museums featuring masses of Nazi aircraft and tanks. In air and water sports I have used eccentric German technology. My present car is of the same design line that Hitler had 50 of. Although mine is used, humble, and small (especially the engine, which putters easily in stop and go traffic), it has a big teutonic SUPERcharger that turns it from a kitty to a lion at times. I don't mean one of those neanderthal TURBOchargers that teens adore, but a stealthy velvety warp drive as used by all dragsters and fuhrers ready to flee assasination attempts.

 

Or were you thinking of the historical implications? Nazi Germany was on the brink of amazing weapon technology at the end of the war. Not only fast stealthy aircraft, but long time submersable subs that would have drastically threated Atlantic convoys again (they carried their own oxygen, and were potentially going to carry missles). Maybe not nukes, but enough weaponry to hold off Allies. If you look into the details of these programs, their main holdup seemed to be cutoff of critical supply components. Not just from the derided "carpet" bombing, but time after time their oil or special metal or fabrication centers were pinpointed. Thank you Brits for blocking Rommel from oil country. Thank you Ruskies for blocking Nazi southern thrust towards oil country. Thank you Yanks who apparently did make that Norden bombsight succeed a few times.

[Viggen]

....here a german documentary with some original footage, this thing was not years but decades ahead of everything else that was in the air at the time...

 

[Centurion-Macro]

It is this technology the Nazi's had that makes some people think Hitler had help from aliens (I'm serious).

[Macerinus]

Why does everyone call them Nazi's and not just Germans?

[Viggen]

Why does everyone call them Nazi's and not just Germans?

 

probably same reason we differentiante between Romans and Italians...?

[caesar novus]

Why does everyone call them Nazi's and not just Germans?

Maybe the bf109 started as a German peoples defensive weapon, but in 1939-45 German weapon designers knew they were enabling the Nazi goals of aggression. Von Braun, Messerschmitt, Kurt Tank (best aircraft), and Ferdinand Porsche (worst tanks) are sometimes spun as well meaning folks caught up in a police state, but...

 

That was spun more positively when we needed to borrow such folks to help oppose communism. An Austrian scholar details the escape of many Nazis thru postwar Italy in book/video http://www.booktv.org/Program/12710/Nazis+on+the+Run+How+Hitlers+Henchmen+Fled+Justice.aspx where a pattern of acceptance by German speaking Italians, the vatican, and the red cross were eventually joined by the US gov't in getting such Nazi's across the Atlantic.

[Ursus]

Why does everyone call them Nazi's and not just Germans?

 

Because not all Germans were Nazis and not all Nazis were German?

 

In any event, Nazi denotes a specific time period, which was the point.

[Ursus]

What aspect of that story interests you?

 

Everything. Major WWII buff here.

[Ursus]

There are also conspiracy theories about stealth technology being applied to U-Boats in the closing days of the war.

[caldrail]

The germans did develope some stealth technology with u-boats, such as rubber honeycomb coating to offset sonar reflections, and so forth. Nothing hugely amazing but given how effective the allies anti-submarine warfare was from the mid-war onward, any hope of slipping past was worth trying.

 

Regarding the Ho-229. The stealth qualities were coincidental, since the aircraft was based on experimental gliders built before WW2 by the same designers. As a flying platform, I would hazard a guess that directional stability was a problem, and quite how you'd recover from a spin is beyond me.

 

Regarding the Bf-109. That was a private venture by Willy Messerschmitt and intended to propel his aviation company into the big contract league by providing Germany's next front-line fighter. He brought together several advances in aerodynamics and also used experience with the Bf108 Taifun, a four seat low wing monoplane that had performed well in prewar aerial contests. Since Germany in 1936 was becoming an aggressor state, there was no requirement for a 'defence fighter', although the later models were adapted for this role as the war turned.

 

There's a lot of bunkum said about German military research in the closing period of the war. Most of these aeroplane designs were no more than fanciful sketches, ideas, or suggestions. What we notice is that radical redesign usually occured once an idea was put into a wind tunnel. It is true that aircraft designers of the late war were an imaginative lot, but we must also note that despite some intriguing technological systems that were tested or put into service, the Germans struggled to make them a success.

[caesar novus]

note that despite some intriguing technological systems that were tested or put into service, the Germans struggled to make them a success.

I might have to read A. Speer's book about his role as Minister of Amaments. It seems he wrestled with the tradeoffs of futuristic engineering vs practical use. I read some bits about him realizing early on that US/UK/USSR manufacturing ability was going to swamp that of the German empire. One of his responses was to shut down the ambitions of engineers, drastically cutting back refinements and planned projects. He was extremely successful in raising aircraft production, even as bombing ramped up (except in German occupied France, where they could never get production above 10% of Britain).

 

Well, he had other techniques like firing department heads older than 55 and deputies older than 40 (to avoid routine and arrogance). Maybe some of these are applicable to improving business conditions today. Anyway, towards the end the emphasis had to swing back to exotic weapons because nothing else had a shred of hope except for a wild gamble.

Edited August 19, 2011 by caesar novus

[Guest ParatrooperLirelou]

Interesting to note is that for all of the so called advanced tech the German military was developing, the Wehrmacht as a whole was surprisingly primitive.Even at the start of the war the defeated countries such as France already tended to be more technologically advanced than the German Army Only 10% of the Wehrmacht was the mechanized force we see in movies. 80% of the Wehrmacht(the infantry in particular) were backwards to the point IT WAS MAINLY USING HORSES AS MEANS OF TRANSPORTATION!

 

I even remember by 1943, the typical Soviet soldier was considerably better equip than his German counterpart!

[caldrail]

The use of horses was an expedient measure used in the field for convenience. Sometimes transport wasn't available, or they had no fuel, or simply that roads were impassible to vehicles. Also, we have to realise that although the Germans did experiment with some clever stuff (such as camera guided missiles - yes, they really tried that) a lot of it was the first steps in those fields and thus prone to development and operational problems.

 

Production in Germany peeked in early to mid 1944 despite the allied bombing effort because of dispertion and camouflage initiatives. However, the emphasis of allied bombing changed to disrupting field supplies before D-Day because the allied high command correctly ascertained that fuel was Germany's achilles heal.

 

In terms of exotic ideas remember that the german authorities quoshed a lot of them. Many of those wierd and wonderful early jet designs were put in front of the air ministry and refused contracts and funding. Also, the Germans had to focus on strategy and couldn't afford to wander off at all manner of strange tangents, though the search for a advantage in their ever more desperate defense of the Reich would mean that creativity had an necessary outlet.