Would You

[P.Clodius]

From my user name you can probably guess what I would be. What about you?

[Primus Pilus]

Though I find the cause of the Populares more entertaining, and perhaps more interesting to study today, my personal conviction would probably make me a conservative Optimate had I lived during the events in question.

[Germanicus]

I would be a radical Popularis too Clodius.

[Guest Scanderbeg]

Popularis. Woo Popularis

[Marcus Regulus]

Conservative Optimate. Got to go with what works.

[Germanicus]

I'm kind of against these kind of comments in a string like this

 

Got to go with what works

 

 

It boils my blood and makes me want to launch a scathing counterstrike, but I can't as this is not the string for it.

 

oh well, I guess Marcus Regulus got in first with his two cents.

[P.Clodius]

C'mon Populares, we can't let the SNOBS win!!!! All those who want free bread arm yourselves with clubs and makesure the "undecided" vote the way you would have them vote!

[Ursus]

Well, what would you call Augustus? He was a conservative at heart but had to use some radical means to achieve and maintain power.

[Germanicus]

So you are saying Augustus Caesar was not "Popular" with the masses ? Sure he played both sides like a master. But he was only the heir of the most famous popularis of all time after all. At least the Caesareans actually succeeded in something other than just holding up much needed reforms with small minded delaying tactics in the senate !(which didn't work in the long run anyway). I suppose you believe in the devine right of kings too ? Now I'm tagging you back in the ring Clodius !

[P.Clodius]

Sure Augustus was a conservative at heart but he made it to that position as head of the Caesarian (Populares) movement. He pursued a conservative agenda after 23BC in order to promote Romanitas, thus championing stability.

[Ursus]

And that's why I like the guy. He was "conservative" on an intellectual and religious level, but was willing to adapt social institutions to see those ideals were better conveyed in an evolving world.

 

Radical conservative. Populist conservatrive. Call it what you want, I would have thrown my lot in with Octavian had I been there. :-)

[Primus Pilus]

I would have thrown my lot in with Octavian had I been there.  :-)

 

That's the tough question really. Evolving this topic further, let's look at a few key moments in history where the situation is in doubt and we get to decide which 'side' we are on.

 

Let's say 50 BC. Caesar, the de facto leader of the Populares has conquered Gaul but has not crossed the Rubicon. The Optimates, backed by Pompey in a military sense, still have considerable power of their own. The eventual winner is clearly in doubt, who then would you back. As I said earlier I love the history of Caesar, but who I supported at that time would depend on my personal conviction and my station in life. Despite admiring the 'greatness' of Caesar, compared to the bungling of the opposition, I believe I would've supported the Optimates had I been among the elite.

 

As another choice, try to make sense of the turmoil following Caesar's death. Antony is the default new leader of the populares, but lacks Caesar's charisma. Cicero tries to prop up Octavian as a new leader of the Optimates. Lepidus, the leading patrician left alive, had his own following. Who would've known that Octavian would turn against Cicero and ally with Antony (even though he called for justice against the assassins quite early)? Even after the triumvirate was established and the 'Republicans' were destroyed, who would've guessed that Octavian could beat Antony in an actual war. In my previous example, I backed the Optimates. Had I survived, I would've likely ended up with Sextus Pompey (great I was once a Senator, now I'm a supporter of a pirate), but lets say you are forced to pick amongst the triumvirates. Pick wrong and you are eventually dead, Octavian was not so forgiving as Caesar (assuming your convictions are strong and you are not willing to switch sides mid conflict). Lepidus at least was a Patrician with a strong familial history. Antony and the way he acted (eastern influences) was an embarrassment. And Octavian was a johnny come lately with no legitimate right to power.

[P.Clodius]

Octavian was not so forgiving as Caesar

 

 

This could be said sure, but he WAS overall fair. For instance, Asinus Polio was an Antonian but managed to survive through to his lifes natural conclusion. Also, the proscriptions that Octavian took part in were largely fueled by the need to generate cash, freeup land and of course track down the Tyrranicides, (all of which were dead within 3 years of their crime). FYI. Polio once said "It isn't an easy thing to critisize a man who can proscribe." Damn, can't get the quote to work. Its probably me.

[Marcus Regulus]

I'm kind of against these kind of comments in a string like this

 

QUOTE 

Got to go with what works

 

 

It boils my blood and makes me want to launch a scathing counterstrike, but I can't as this is not the string for it.

 

oh well, I guess Marcus Regulus got in first with his two cents.

 

 

Aw come now. I thought this was a a friendly vote.

[Germanicus]

Hi Marcus Regulus - it's definatley a friendly vote, but aint it funny how heated these same factional disputes still get after so long ? Populares Vs Optimates, Left Vs Right, democracy Vs Monarchy etc etc.

 

Hi Primus Pilus - is it safe to say that if you had been a plebian, say a merchant or slave trader, you'd have sided with the populares ?