roman wargamer Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I've been wondering, the scutum has a handle in the center, behind the boss, correct? So how does one hold it effectivily and not get tired during the fighting? S=strap H=handle .....=space ----------- |............| |............| |............| |.....H.....| |............| |............| |............| ----------- I just visualize a much more practical sheild with a strap on one side for the forearm, and a handle on the other, like this- ----------- |............| |............| |............| |.S......H.| |............| |............| |............| ----------- So what are other people's thoughts? This post has been edited by Dominus Rex: Jun 17 2006, 12:46 AM my reply |............| |............| |............| |...S..H...| |............| |............| |............| ------------ i believe that the straps was on the wrist and the handle in the hand the distance between the wrist and the hand was only around 3" inches it was around 30" inches from lower edge of shield and at the back of the boss. this is how i believe is the most practical way in terms of control and weight balancing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Assuming that my eyes are of some assistance and that Pertinax' excellent pictures depict the shield as it was, there is no strap either at the forearm or the wrist. If there were a strap at the forearm, the angle of travel of the shield would be greatly limited. The right side of the body could not be protected. The left side would also be limited. A testudo could not be formed. It would be difficult to protect ones head from flying missiles or sword strokes. Holding the shield by the hand alone allows one to increase the angles of protection. A strap at the wrist would not spread the weight of the shield to any extent. The question of why the gladius was on the right side is also answered. Drawing it from either side requires the same amount of radial travel for the attachment of the scabbard to the belt. It is as easy to draw from the right as the left side with the right arm. The resulting hand grip is the same. One is prepared to jab. The shield does not have to be moved forward to prevent slashing ones left arm when drawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) Total simplicity may be better , the full play of the wrist and hand can be used with a simple grip, add anything to the wrist in the way of strapping that places pressure on the "blood return valve" mechanism of that area ( especially with extra leverage) and you have a more complex balancing act to perform. Dont forget these people trained with very heavy practise shields to perfect handling in all situations. http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=849 does this image help? Its a heavy crop from a more detailed shot-look at all the gear this chap is carrying, the right sided draw looks like a good clutter free option! Next re-enactment is coming up soon , I will ask the people at the event their experiences regarding shield handling. Edited June 22, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Pertinax, he seems to be holding the shield with a horizontal rather than a vertical bar. Assistance, please. :notworthy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) Pertinax, he seems to be holding the shield with a horizontal rather than a vertical bar. Assistance, please. :notworthy: Yes, the whole of this "vexillation" of LEG VIII( and as did the Deva Victrix unit) had similar grips, the auxilliae had vertical grips. http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=850 I post this image for your elucidation-note that the "heavies" always have the shield sqaure and level , the auxilliae tend always to hold at a (slight) slant even in formation. Edited June 22, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) Please take a look at this http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=838 now here we have an "active" mobile formation , see how the scutum position and angle varies per grip. Edited June 23, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Please take a look at this http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=851 now here we have an "active" mobile formation , see how the scutum position and angle varies per grip. Noted. Yet, I have a problem. The horizontal grip 'seems' to limit the angular travel of the shield when the wrist is twisted to the right. This wouldn't happen with the vertical hold. I am really asking a question here. I am positive that I am missing something. I guess that there must be advantages and disadvantages for each grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I wonder if the key is- which is the best grip to use the scutum boss as an offensive weapon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I wonder if the key is- which is the best grip to use the scutum boss as an offensive weapon? Beats me. Seems that the boss is in the same place on both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I wonder if the key is- which is the best grip to use the scutum boss as an offensive weapon? Beats me. Seems that the boss is in the same place on both. I was thinking about delivering the blow , if you have already made a fist and strike upwards, that is the simplest action. If the grip is vertical you will tend to twist the fist to deliver a blow-which takes the shield out of the vertica. At the next re-enacatment I will try a scutum out myself and ask for someone to go through and evolution of the drill to see if the hand position is critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominus Rex Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Does anyone else think it would be hard to carry a heavy shield with one arm all day? No matter what the grip, you would get awfully tired. Also, I can see how one may deliver a blow with the boss if holding the shield with a horizontal grip. It's like punching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Does anyone else think it would be hard to carry a heavy shield with one arm all day? No matter what the grip, you would get awfully tired. Also, I can see how one may deliver a blow with the boss if holding the shield with a horizontal grip. It's like punching. If you were carrying it "all day" yes indeed ,but if being carried by suspension to the rear of the soldier then that load is well spread, if waiting for contact the shield would be rested on the ground: in combat id suggest you wouldnt notice it was there given the amount of endorphins released by your brain. The "punch grip" , as we might call it, seems to be the simplest way to utilise the offensive capabilities of the shield boss, and requires very little movement of any joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Does anyone else think it would be hard to carry a heavy shield with one arm all day? No matter what the grip, you would get awfully tired. Also, I can see how one may deliver a blow with the boss if holding the shield with a horizontal grip. It's like punching. I'm reliably informed that actors and re-enactors get tired quite quickly hauling the shield around, which is why I believe that for normal carrying it would be better to keep the shield arm straight to avoid strain. The only drawback is the lower height of the shield as you approach. Perhaps the training of a legionary compensated. After all, I'm not used to carrying a shield all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Does anyone else think it would be hard to carry a heavy shield with one arm all day? No matter what the grip, you would get awfully tired. Also, I can see how one may deliver a blow with the boss if holding the shield with a horizontal grip. It's like punching. I'm reliably informed that actors and re-enactors get tired quite quickly hauling the shield around, which is why I believe that for normal carrying it would be better to keep the shield arm straight to avoid strain. The only drawback is the lower height of the shield as you approach. Perhaps the training of a legionary compensated. After all, I'm not used to carrying a shield all day. The legionary was. His training was all year long and the equivalent of modern Special Forces, if not more so. More anon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Just a reminder that I hope to take in the LEG III re-enactment this weekend ahead at Bremetenacvm http://www.roman-britain.org/places/bremetenacum.htm and will try to get further information on shield grip/shield portability/combat stance/sword draw technique.If I can get any closeup images during the drill evolution, which highlight these things, I will post them asap.If any members have technical questions regarding armament and drill/combat can you either post here or pm me . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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