Roman-carthage Pact

[Guest spartacus]

The struggle between Rome and Carthage spanned over a century from the first clash in 265 to the final destruction of Carthage in 146

The first and second wars with fought on a scale seldom rivalled until the modern era

The cost of war consumed a large portion of the resources of the two most powerful states in the Western Mediterranean

The Punic Wars accustomed the Romans to waging war on an enormous scale, sending armies further afield to fight in several widely separated theatres simultaneously

Described often as the largest conflict of the ancient world, the human cost was enormous, in just one battle alone in 216 the Romans and their allies lost around 50,000 dead !

In this Topic I would like to re-write History!

From a hypothetical viewpoint of course!

Lets suppose their was no wars between Carthage and Rome, instead when there was mistrust and hatred between the two, they sat down at the negotiating table and together signed a Pact, they would forge out together and create an Empire to be equally shared, their navies unite, their armies unify, a single Senate, shared trade and prosperity!

So, if this had been the case, how would this Roman-Carthage Alliance have been written into the history books, and how would it have possibly changed the world we live in today?

Regarding the Empire, with two powerful armies merged into one I think the conquest of Germania would have been completed, and the Empire stretch into the Scandic Nations, the whole of Brittannia would also have been overwhelmed, to the East, the Empires boundaries pushed toward and possibly

into India, and to the South further gains into Africa, prosperity would come to all citizens of both Carthage and Rome, virtually eliminating the poor and lower classes

Infrastructure would be improved still further, more roads, more buildings for public use and the prosperity would reduce crime and in turn the quality of life for citizens greatly improved

This is my theory, I am sure you may have yours if Carthage and Rome joined together, if so, then please post with your ideas/views on this?

[Germanicus]

As I understood it there were actually a few treatys if not "pacts" between Rome and Carthage before the showdown ? I could be wrong, but feel the two were somehow linked in the destruction of Syracuse. Feel free to correct me here.

 

I would agree with you Spartacus on the count that if these pacts had been perhaps more amicable and longer lasting, the outcome of a number of Romes wars could have been very different, with undoubted major expansion as a result. There is however one point I connot agree with :-

 

prosperity would come to all citizens of both Carthage and Rome, virtually eliminating the poor and lower classes

 

 

I can't envisage this ever happening back then, just as I can't see it happening in my lifetime. I guess it depends on your definition of "virtually" eh ?? :punk:

[Guest spartacus]

By virtually I mean greatly reduced!

[Zeke]

Well there woulld't be an Empire to begin with this because if Carthage and Rome had a "united empire" of some sort they would always be fighting and would have never gotten anything done, the Romans wouldn't have expanded so far because the Carthigians would have been arguing not to but keep up with the profitable trade with Greece and not have Greece Anexed. Carthigians were more intrested in trading and mainting their rich properity then starting wars with the Potlemics or the Celts for example. While the Romans on the other hand believed in expansionism and the glory of their own small little city state. Carthage had territory but it wasn't because of their fantical patriosim (I doubt Carthgians had much loalty to Carthage half of them were not even Phonecian to begin with) but their fantical trade obbsecsion.

 

To point out other things.....Rome would be limited to Italy and Gaul and maybe Britian, while the Carthigian Senate would probably have compleate control over Spain and most of nothern Africa and negotiations would have to made with Rome because Rome had to live off African Grain. Roman Legions would be stationed on the borders of the "united empire" but would never go past the modern day Suez Canal because Carthage was more content with keeping up trade with the Macedonian Dictatorships of the former Persian Empire then accually annexing them. Macedon would be the third most powerful in the Mederterinian and would either join the United Empire or become destoryed by Rome. Carthigians would be supplying merchanies from all over and you might see Beleric Slingers or Libyian spearmen in Britian. While Celtic soliders would be stationed near Utica or Leptis Magus.

 

Parthia would have eventually come to power and would exapannd all the way through modern day Turkey and stop at the border of Thrace. Julius Caeser might never had existed and the Emperor of Rome would never exist.....instead it would be

 

Consuler Roma Intepetator

Consuler Carhtogo Inteperatator,

 

The two Senates would have to about 300 members and woul probably meet in neutral territory maybe the Spanish border with Gaul. Also Jesus would never have come to prominece and with out Roman rodes the world might still be Pagan and be living the same, Rome would not have expanded too much without taking over Greece because Greece is where all the philosphers came from to infulence the Roman state.

 

I find this an intresting theoretical disccsuion!

 

Sorry about spelling,

Zeke

[Germanicus]

I don't know a lot about the Carthagenian empire Zeke. So Carthage had quite good relations with Macedonia and Greece ? Do you know if they were involved at all in concert with the Romans over Syracuse ? Do you think Roman culture would have influenced Carthageian culture to much of an extent if the two had signed some sort of military treaty - to co-operate ? Would it have been a melding of the two ? The Romans were pretty extensive traders too. More trading between provinces in the end though I suppose, rather than foreign nations ?

[Guest spartacus]

I am glad you like the debate Zeke !

 

A few points though, respectfully!

 

You say they would always be fighting - my post was initially about a signed Peace Pact and a common agreement to share equally!

 

Macedonia would have been absorbed by the combined might of Rome and Carthage (in my opinion)

 

That said, yours was an interesting perspective nonetheless !

[Guest Scanderbeg]

I dunno. To me the whole idea of two completely different civilizations uniting as one seems....illogical. Personally, I believe it would be extremely unstable. The governments may be 1. But the people....

[Guest spartacus]

Skenderberg

 

 

The whole point of the Topic is "what If ", its not gospel !

 

 

I was simply saying HAD their been an alliance then how would it have changed things!

 

[Guest Scanderbeg]

Yea but usually "what if" thoughts are led by realistic probabilities.

Like what if the Spartans did not get to Thermopylae in time to stall the Persians?

Otherwise there is no end to them.

like What if Caesar got diharrea during an important battle. Although considering some of his problems, that doesn't seem all that far off.

[Zeke]

Well even if they did have a peace treaty they would still be fighting over all the petty stuff that would arise, who would govern each province, who would be appointed on the Senate which Legions of Cartho/Romans would go here and there it would be a big mess. But it would also be very econmocially strong and I doubt inflation would be as high as it was in the late Roman Empire.

 

Still I think the Carthigians were better trade partners then the Romans but their arcitecture skills were poor compared to Rome's. And yes I believe that Carthage had good relations with SOME city states in Greece.

 

Sorry about spelling,

Zeke

[Germanicus]

It's a very hard "what if" to answer. There are so many variables. I think Sparticus' question is more like - If there was an AMICABLE Rome-Carthage pact - that was workable - what would the outcome have been in terms of expansion, trade and Governance ? Most of Sparticus speculation involved expanded borders and conquest. I agree that it sounds illogical, but then an agreement for military co-operation between Germany and Japan would have sounded pretty unlikely considering their totally differnt cultures, and yet - it happened.