5th century Franks

[cinzia8]

Hello all:

 

I'm writing a story with Frank characters. It is 450 CE. When they switch from Latin to their language, I've been using the word German. My research tells me that they spoke a western German dialect or language, but I'm wondering if I should use the term Frankish? I believe this reference may apply to later in time but I'm not sure. Any knowledgeable advice or opinions.

 

Thanks,

Cinzia

[Viggen]

Yeah at 450 there was no united German language, the "Althochdeutsch" the oldest german started to form around 600 AD what they would have spoken depending where they are from, is old frankish , or maybe gothic,

 

now gothic is very interesting as we have with the Wulfila Bilble the only extensive document in an ancient Eastern Germanic language,

http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/ maybe (depending on your storyline) make your characters speak gothic, you could even use authentic words

 

cheers

viggen

[Viggen]

another issue would be where along the Rhine do they come from, which side of the Rhine, and what community therein?

[barca]

Yeah at 450 there was no united German language, the "Althochdeutsch" the oldest german started to form around 600 AD what they would have spoken depending where they are from, is old frankish , or maybe gothic,

 

now gothic is very interesting as we have with the Wulfila Bilble the only extensive document in an ancient Eastern Germanic language,

http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/ maybe (depending on your storyline) make your characters speak gothic, you could even use authentic words

 

cheers

viggen

 

 

As I recall, the Western Germanic Languages were broken down further into High German, or Hochdeutsch (including modern German and Yiddish) and Low German (Dutch, Frisian, Flemish, English). And there were also Northern Germanic Languages (Nordic: including modern Icelandic, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian)

Edited February 26, 2011 by barca

[Ludovicus]

What varieties of Latin do they speak when they're not conversing in "German" ? By that period, spoken Latin would have begun to differentiate into various dialects with some of them full of non Latin words. Italian has a lot of vocabulary derived from "barbarized" Latin of that period.

 

Hello all:

 

I'm writing a story with Frank characters. It is 450 CE. When they switch from Latin to their language, I've been using the word German. My research tells me that they spoke a western German dialect or language, but I'm wondering if I should use the term Frankish? I believe this reference may apply to later in time but I'm not sure. Any knowledgeable advice or opinions.

 

Thanks,

Cinzia

[docoflove1974]

Old Frankish was a West Germanic language, with its closest relatives being Old Saxon and Old High German. It was used to the west up to the Seine, and to the north up to Belgium. Low Frankish was apparently spoken in the Netherlands, along side Frisian and Old Saxon. There were East and West dialects; Dutch is the modern descendant of Old West Frankish*.

 

But note that the Romance dialects of Gaul did replace Frankish as the court language--certainly the people didn't seem to use much Frankish--and that this was probably an early transformation. We have the Oaths of Strasbourg, which were written at the beginning of the 9th century, already in full-fledged Romance French (or even Old French) with few if any traces of Frankish, and that is only 300 years after your time period.

 

*Info taken from: Beekes, Robert S.P. 1995. Comparative Indo-European Linguistics, p. 27-29.

[cinzia8]

Old Frankish was a West Germanic language, with its closest relatives being Old Saxon and Old High German. It was used to the west up to the Seine, and to the north up to Belgium. Low Frankish was apparently spoken in the Netherlands, along side Frisian and Old Saxon. There were East and West dialects; Dutch is the modern descendant of Old West Frankish*.

 

But note that the Romance dialects of Gaul did replace Frankish as the court language--certainly the people didn't seem to use much Frankish--and that this was probably an early transformation. We have the Oaths of Strasbourg, which were written at the beginning of the 9th century, already in full-fledged Romance French (or even Old French) with few if any traces of Frankish, and that is only 300 years after your time period.

 

*Info taken from: Beekes, Robert S.P. 1995. Comparative Indo-European Linguistics, p. 27-29.

 

My area is Belgica Secunda (Salian Franks), which is in the vicinity of modern Belgium. I also believe the Franks united under Clovis absorbed the gallic Latin spoken in the areas they settled and the change toward what eventually became French.

Edited February 28, 2011 by cinzia8

[cinzia8]

Thanks everyone for the insights.

Cinzia

[Viggen]

I consulted with an expert on early germanics this is what he had to say...

 

Given the date, I think it would be safer to go with a low franconian dialect. If you look at this map:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Languages_Benelux.PNG

 

you can see that Limburgish is not geographically too distant from Luxembourgisch which is a higher german but, at that time, I guess most people down there would have still been speaking romance. Later, they are all influenced by old french but 450 AD is early enough to presume that the Salii spoke a low german language. The Walloons of course are now french speaking, so the story is set somewhere close to the linguistic border. But certainly it would be safer to think in terms of old dutch rather than old high german for this area.

[cinzia8]

I consulted with an expert on early germanics this is what he had to say...

 

Given the date, I think it would be safer to go with a low franconian dialect. If you look at this map:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Languages_Benelux.PNG

 

you can see that Limburgish is not geographically too distant from Luxembourgisch which is a higher german but, at that time, I guess most people down there would have still been speaking romance. Later, they are all influenced by old french but 450 AD is early enough to presume that the Salii spoke a low german language. The Walloons of course are now french speaking, so the story is set somewhere close to the linguistic border. But certainly it would be safer to think in terms of old dutch rather than old high german for this area.

 

I'm sorry about the late reply but for some reason, I'm not getting notifications. I've checked my settings but will check again.

 

This is for a novel. The Frank characters speak to Romans in Latin, but at times switch to their own language for privacy. I've been using, "He spoke in German." And at times I use "Ja" and some small phrases in German. It has to be easy for the reader to understand not necessarily specifically accurate. I just saw an author in the same time period referring to a Frank character as "speaking in Frankish." This is why I'm questioning which might be truer to the period. I'm out of town and away from my resource materials, but revising, so I thought I would ask.

 

Thanks for the interest and the map!!

Cinzia

Edited March 9, 2011 by cinzia8