Cleopatra

[Viggen]

Racial profiling and manipulation have been around for a very long time. It has become an issue in contemporary politics, and over 2500 years ago the Greek historian Herodotos wrote that ethnicity was regularly turned to political ends. Cleopatra VII, the last queen of Egypt and a woman of great ability, is often a victim of racial profiling, as today people can be more interested in her racial background than her many accomplishments. Such concerns have recently come to the forefront with the announcement that in at least one of the several Cleopatra movies currently planned, a white (instead of black) actress would play the role of the queen. It is hard to imagine that race would be more important than acting ability, but clearly others disagree...

 

To sum up: it is quite possible that Cleopatra was pure Macedonian Greek. But it is probable that she had some Egyptian blood, although the amount is uncertain. Certainly it was no more than half, and probably less. The best evidence is that she was three-quarters Macedonian Greek and one-quarter Egyptian. There is no room for anything else, certainly not for any black African blood.

via classical scholar, Duane W. Roller on OUP Blog

[Ursus]

Thank you, Mr Roller, for saying everything that needs to be said.

 

Honestly, we could boil it down to this:

1) Cleopatra wasn't "black"

2) This should'nt matter to anyone except crazy Afro-centrists

[Melvadius]

3 People continue to be interested in the subject but a definitive answer to the race question will never be provided or even if it is be accepted by everyone

[Viggen]

...even if she was partially egyptian aren`t north africans (egyptians) far from being "black" i mean nubians were darker ok, but imagine someone like Dr. Zawi Hawass played by an african american actor like Morgan Freeman, does that make sense?

 

http://www.mummiesfi...ss/IMG_6921.JPG

[Kosmo]

The definition of what a black is may vary, but generally blacks were an uncommon sight in the Mediterranean world.

[Melvadius]

There are several issues with the various 'skin hue' maps produced based on the work of von Luschan and Biasutti not least the socio-political period in which these were created. This is exemplified by how many 'hues' can be seen to relate solely to Europe along with gaps in the data being interprolated from the closest areas where data did exist - no matter how far away.

 

However the core concept is probably reasonably valid, despite the obvious desire of some 'people of colour' to claim her as their heroine:

 

The incidence of sub-Saharan African's within the Ancient Egytian population was probably quite low.

 

QED the chances of Cleopatra having any significant quantity of non-Macedonian/ non-Egyptian blood in her is fairly minimal.

[Ludovicus]

The work of von Luschan notwithstanding, it's amazing how money, perceived social status, and location can whiten skin color. A person judged "white" in Brazil could easily be seen as "black" in the US, and "colored" in South Africa. In some Latin American countries, people of the same skin color are received as white or nonwhite according to their wealth and class. Cleopatra was certainly African, as are all people born on that continent. No matter how little "black" blood coursed through her veins, in the US just a few years ago, "one drop" of sub-Saharan blood would have legally tagged the queen "black" in many legal settings.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

[Melvadius]

I have already indicated above along with my own inclination the underlying facts that any individual's perceptions of ethnicity, social class and 'racial' affiliations based effectively on place of birth do not necessarily align closely with reality. This is especially true if such designations may have had their origins in a classification system which is inherantly of a racist or 'inverted' racist nature - any result is liable to be biased in some way.

 

The above link well illustrates the numerous different opinions mainly but not exclusively in America about what might constitute a 'black'/ person of colour (or any other designation you may wish to consider). American perceptions of 'racial heritage' based on it's social and legal history is notorious for suffering from this dicotomy so without a large caveat is possibly not the best place to provide a 'definitive' conclusion about an individual whose history remains open to so many conflicting opinions and uncertainty

 

The few 'facts' relating to Cleopatra's racial heritage that the majority of 'experts' seem to agree on is that she was born in Egypt within a family which had a strong Macedonian heritage but few if any 'confirmable' links to the native 'Egyptian' population let alone sub-Saharan Africans.

 

That said I strongly suspect that this question will continued to circle without resolution as rightly or wrongly so many individuals feel passionately about the topic and without a lot more information which is not available from the historical record it can never be definitively resolved.

[sonic]

I think it is time for me to put on my 'devil's advocate' hat.

 

I think that what Mr Roller and others here are forgetting is both the context and the ramifications of the question: "Was Cleopatra 'Black'"?

 

It seems to me that the question being asked here is 'Does it matter to our own ethnically-biased culture whether Cleopatra was 'black' or not: if she was, what specific origin were her ancestors, and what can the deduction achieve in our own times?'

 

I agree that many modern historians have attempted to show that Cleopatra may have been 'black', but in too many cases there appears to be a hint of bias about the inquiry.

 

It may be Egyptian historians claiming that she had Egyptian rather than 'pure' Macedonian blood in her, in this way attempting to claim her as 'their own', so showing that until the Roman conquest Egypt was still 'free and independent'.

 

It would appear that in the US there are some historians of sub-Saharan descent who are attempting to claim that she had sub-Saharan ancestors, which would allow them to claim her as 'their own', as politically the example of a 'Black' queen would be highly useful, especially as an exemplar.

 

Both of these attitudes are open to criticism, largely because the outcome of the investigation is tied to the historian's own wishes rather than being an investigation in an attempt to widen our knowledge.

 

If the question "Was Cleopatra 'Black'"? is asked for the correct reasons, then it can have major ramifications for our understanding of the last years of Ptolemaic Egypt.

 

If she had Egyptian ancestry, for instance, this could indicate that the dynasty she ruled had recognized that it was failing and that it had lost the support of the indigenous population. In that case, her descent might be evidence of her father's (or grandfather's) marriage to an Egyptian, or taking an Egyptian concubine in an attempt to foster unity within the population and so bolster the regime.

 

If she had sub-Saharan ancestry, the ramifications are even more widespread. The 'marriage' would almost certainly represent a strengthening of political ties with the south. It may even hint at the establishment of a military, political and economic alliance with a sub-Saharan kingdom.

 

On the other hand, her (grand)father or whoever may have simply taken a slave he took a shine to as a concubine and Cleopatra was the result.

 

So the answers to the two questions are that 1) we will never know Cleopatra's True Racial Background unless new and unexpected evidence comes to light, and 2) yes it does matter, but only when looked at in the light of pure historical research unclouded by the personal desires of the researcher, however noble or otherwise.

 

Right, I'm now crawling back under my stone ...

Edited February 23, 2011 by sonic

[Melvadius]

Sonic, possibly you should come out from under that stone more often as you have provided a good encapsulation of what we probably should all consider the key questions.

 

I recently had pointed out to me another aspect which although to some extent secondary to your suggestions also could be a subject for neutral/ academic consideration in a similar way.

 

Recently much has been made in some quarters of Cleopatra

[Tribunicus Potestus]

I would have assumed that because of the in-breeding in the Ptolemy line she would be the one person in all of ancient history that would have the strongest claim to being lily "white". However there is the knowledge "it is a wise man who knows his father". And someone may have snuck in.

 

I have seen estimates some with greater and some lesser numbers that hover around 10 percent of people are not in fact the child of the purported father. So we may never know the "race" of Cleopatra though I think it safe to conclude she was mostly if not completely Macedonian whatever that may have been at the time.

[Tribunicus Potestus]

...even if she was partially egyptian aren`t north africans (egyptians) far from being "black" i mean nubians were darker ok, but imagine someone like Dr. Zawi Hawass played by an african american actor like Morgan Freeman, does that make sense?

 

http://www.mummiesfi...ss/IMG_6921.JPG

No it does not make sense. On the other hand Morgan Freeman playing a nubian makes little sense as he clearly has a good degree of "white" blood. It can not be argued that egyptians do not have a sizable amount of mixed blood. One has but to look at Anwar Sadat.

There are many paintings from the pharaonic times right through the roman occupation of egypt that depict nubians. There are also many shades in between in the depictions.

 

The whole question is a bit silly. Here in the U.S. Obama is always referred to as a "black" president when he is as much "white" as he is black in terms of his parentage. If one could not see him but only judge him with blind eyes one would have to conclude he were a "white" american, culturally you can't get any more "white" american than he is. He is very different to my eyes than his wife in terms of culture, in speech, and in attitudes she clearly bears the mark of african-american sub-culture. I argue this with acquaintances all the time. On what basis can you call him definitively "black"?

 

With that in mind under no circumstances would I call Cleopatra "black". Even if her father were 100 percent nubian she could at most be described as mixed. Culturally she would be "the Queen of Egypt" and that's that.