Historical Jesus Found!

[Peter]

This thread has been mostly civil despite the provocative nature of the topic.  I would like to commend the members on their maturity and civility.

 

However, I understand that faith is a private thing and held dear for those so inclined. Overtly disparaging some one else's faith is not in the best interests of the site. Let's keep the topic confined to the academic and historical merits (if any) of the original thesis.

Who is disparaging someone else's faith?

I'm sorry if my posting was perceived that way by anyone, it wasn't meant to.

I just thought pompeius magnus remark was dispensable, and it also smacked a bit of an attempt of censorship.

[Ursus]

My remarks weren't necessarily directed toward your latest post, Peter. Having reread this thread tonight, I just noticed a general trend in some of the replies, and I didn't want to see the thread head off in that direction away from the original subject.

[Q Valerius Scerio]

Jesus is Christ, I have no problem with that. JC=JC. But the Bible tells us that Julius Ceasar was made in JC's image. That is a greater problem for me . .

 

Genesis 1:26

 

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

 

There is no mention of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is a Judaic book. Moses wrote that passage. Hebrew lexicon implies that 'image' and 'likeness' indicate our similarity in form. That we are differentiated from animals.

Just wanted to point out that Moses did not write that passage, if he even existed. It's absolutely ludicrous even for fundamental Christians to think that Moses wrote the Hebrew Bible.

 

The Torah is a composite work of several authors and redactions luminating both the pre-exilic past of Judah's glory and a safeguard to those weary after the Babylonian exile.

[P.Clodius]

The Torah is a composite work of several authors and redactions luminating both the pre-exilic past of Judah's glory and a safeguard to those weary after the Babylonian exile.

 

 

...and it was written over the course of several hundred years!

[Q Valerius Scerio]

Yes indeed, and never finalized until the Masoretic Text in the medieval times.

[Northern Neil]

Has anyone read 'The Jesus Mysteries' by Freke and Gandy? Heres a link: http://www.vexen.co.uk/books/jesusmysteries.html

 

Like other observers on this thread, it seems to come to the conclusion that Christianity was a summary of a lot of other myths and stories going on in the east Med. from about 1000BC up to the first century. It was simply repackaged in a coherent (perhaps!) form and crystallised via the ecumenical councils. My hunch is that there was a Jesus, but that he was the storyteller - not the actual guy these things in the new testament actually happened to.

[Ursus]

The Hellenistic East in Roman times was a melting pot of religions and ideas. Hellenized Jews living under Roman authority like Saul of Tarsus would have had one foot in a Judaic world and one foot in the Greco-Roman-Egyptian worlds.

 

As I read cultures, the Jews were and are a people dedicated to the refinement of ethics and wisdom (as they see it, anyway). But their metaphysical explorations were not quite as developed. Hellenistic philosophy, on the other hand, has some well-developed ontology.

 

It's been said by many how Christianity seems to be a compromise between the Hebraic worlds and the Hellenic. It has the concern for Jewish ethics and is tied to some remnant of Jewish tribal law and the Jewish tribal God (which became a universal god after the Babylonian exile). However, it also incorporates elements of Greek philosophy like Stoicism and Platonism. When John speaks of the "word" (logos, in the original Greek) of god, he seems to be tying it to the logos of centuries worth of Greek philosophy. And when Christians basically see this world as a fallen degeneration of a better, higher reality to which their souls must find communion, they aren't saying anything radically different than what Plato said centuries before (albeit Plato expressed it in different terms).

 

Obviously Christianity grew out of an evolving pattern of Greco-Roman thought, and is therefore a part of Western civilization whether some people like it or not. But it

[Segestan]

The information alluding to Caesar as Christ is simply nonsense.

Julius Caesar was born in 102. Died on the 15th of March 44 BC.

Joshua ben Joseph -aka..Jesus...a Jew born of Mary and Joseph , was born August 21st 7 BC ; died AD 26 on Calvary Hill.

The Jewish records are extensive that Christ was who he said he was.

The Roman Imperial cult had their own ideas of divinity. Augustus claimed that he was the Messiah.

The Roman teachings of the Divinity of the Cult were primarily ideas of self-aggradizement.

In fact the Roman Pantheon itself , being polytheistic would exclude a Caesar from the Throne of a Monotheistic Deity.

Monotheism was a Jewish Kings right to Supreme Rule. The One -Paterfamilias- of the tribes of Israel if you will.

There are just so many historical writings of Christ the Loving messiah of an enslaved -bondaged mankind. Written by men and women of good moral virtues.

It is silly to even contrive that a Roman Caesar ; a man who represented world power with all of the riches that the created world had to offer him, would reduce himself to the status of a Jewish fisherman over religious dogma. Caesar was according to the Roman Imperial system ...a Divine Being. This was why he ruled. He did not need to reduce his status to become a King. He already was one. By Divine Right!

 

regards,

[Peter]

...

There are just so many historical writings of Christ the Loving messiah of an enslaved -bondaged mankind. Written by men and women of good moral virtues.

It is silly to even contrive that a Roman Caesar ; a man who represented world power with all of the riches that the created world had to offer him, would reduce himself to the status of a Jewish fisherman over religious dogma. Caesar was according to the Roman Imperial system ...a Divine Being. This was why he ruled. He did not need to reduce his status to become a King. He already was one. By Divine Right!

 

regards,

12662[/snapback]

 

I don't think Caesar "reduced himself to the status of a Jewish fisherman...". This was done by others.

Maybe you should read the book in order to know what you are talking about.

 

Peter

[Segestan]

Well : if You say so Peter. The Fisherman staus that Christ spoke from was an idealistic platform for the masses of humanity. That is he was a God living as a common man. Caesar was a God according to the Imperial Cult , already a Divine Being. He therefore did Not need to be as a common man. That is what I was attempting to relay Peter. Now can you add a few lines of knowledge and not just a short note of discord? I'd like to learn your knowledge about Christ and his message if you care to prove you know What You are taliking about!

 

 

regards,

 

 

...

There are just so many historical writings of Christ the Loving messiah of an enslaved -bondaged mankind. Written by men and women of good moral virtues.

It is silly to even contrive that a Roman Caesar ; a man who represented world power with all of the riches that the created world had to offer him, would reduce himself to the status of a Jewish fisherman over religious dogma. Caesar was according to the Roman Imperial system ...a Divine Being. This was why he ruled. He did not need to reduce his status to become a King. He already was one. By Divine Right!

 

regards,

12662[/snapback]

 

I don't think Caesar "reduced himself to the status of a Jewish fisherman...". This was done by others.

Maybe you should read the book in order to know what you are talking about.

 

Peter

14314[/snapback]

[pompeius magnus]

Segestan not meaning to be a perfectionist but Caesars life began in 100 BC, not 102.

[Segestan]

Some scholars have his birth in 100. But the extensive records of Caesar' career and the dates of those along with others scholars of the times, all who placed his birth in 102...I'll go with that date.

 

There's nothing perfectionist about history. Yesterdays tales are from many sources and the higher- up the political ladder the more self-aggrandizing propaganda these tend to be.

 

regards,

[Primus Pilus]

My own take on Caesar's date of birth...

 

Of interesting note regarding the election is Caesar

[Peter]

Well : if You say so Peter. The Fisherman staus that Christ spoke from was an idealistic platform for the masses of humanity. That is he was a God living as a common man. Caesar was a God according to the Imperial Cult , already a Divine Being. He therefore did Not need to be as a common man. That is what I was attempting to relay Peter. Now can you add a few lines of knowledge and not just a short note of discord? I'd like to learn your knowledge about Christ and his message if you care to prove you know What You are taliking about!

 

What do you want to know about Christ specifically?

As to Caesar, yes he was a descendant of Venus (who became Mary) and he was proud of that. But he was also very popular among the common people because he stood on their side. And his proverbial clemency, the clementia Caesaris, was known throughout antiquity.

Suetonius writes that he" was numbered among the gods not only because of the proclamation of a decision but because of the conviciton of the people".

Suet. Jul. 88: [

[Peter]

Apropos Hollywood, there have been some TV broadcasts in the Netherlands about 'Jesus was Caesar'.

Here is the talk of Professor Cliteur in favor of Carotta's work in the program Buitenhof. For streaming video see right side, choose bandwith. You'll need some Dutch though.

 

And this is the link to the recording of a NOVA-TV production with the author and again Prof. Cliteur. Unfortunately only the questions are in English but it's interesting and understandable nevertheless.

 

Peter