Agora, the movie

[GhostOfClayton]

Even if I take a dim view of the Religious Right in America, I take an ever dimmer view of sweeping generalizations about my country, or assertions that the current president is a savior who will redeem us in the eyes of the world.

 

The trouble with Americans is that they all take dim views on sweeping generalisations made about their country!

 

Seriously though, Ursus. Get it watched! It's a great film.

 

PS The trouble with Brits is that none of them can spell 'generalizations'.

Edited November 26, 2010 by GhostOfClayton

[Kosmo]

I am slightly defensive, however, when he equates the Parabalani (the Christian brotherhood portrayed in the movie as intolerant and fanatical) with us Americans. He assures viewers that with the election of President Obama, however, we Americans will become more tolerant and rational thinking. Good to know.

 

Nobody can accuse the Americans of becoming more tolerant and rational thinking

Anyway, if the comparison with the Americans is far fetched, the reality is that those fanatics look a lot like their Orthodox descendants I see everyday. The ortodox church (es) takes pride in the fact that it never had something like the Inquisition or engaged in large scale religious prosecution but that was because it was always subject to the political power to a much larger degree then in the West. The head of the church was the emperor and even today orthodox churches are to a large extent parts of the state administrative machinery. They were such even in communism when they pray for the atheist leadership. The orthodox are not tolerant by choice but because they usually did not had the power to show their true feelings, so they persecuted their enemies only when the political power allowed them to do so.

[Ludovicus]

I'm sorry to say that our "agora," the intelligent discussion of issues in the public forum, is diminishing here in the US. Here's one indication:

 

PRINCETON, NJ -- On the eve of the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth, a new Gallup Poll shows that only 39% of Americans say they "believe in the theory of evolution," while a quarter say they do not believe in the theory, and another 36% don't have an opinion either way. These attitudes are strongly related to education and, to an even greater degree, religiosity.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx

[GhostOfClayton]

The startling fact is that 11% of Postgraduates still aren't willing to accept Darwin's theory. Then again, facts are clearly the work of Beelzebub!

[guy]

Don't get me wrong. I highly recommend the movie.

 

I thought it was very thought provoking. At least one of the actors (the actor who played Ammonius is a devout Palestinian Christian) insisted that the director of the movie moderate the potential anti-Christian tone of the film.

 

The movie shows most of new Christian converts to be women, slaves, or the poor.

 

"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."

 

This depiction of the weaker segments of society being attracted to the Jesus movement supports my belief about the underestimated size of the early Jesus movement.

 

I think the estimate that less than 10% of the Roman Empire was Christian at the time of Constantine's "conversion" is a gross underestimation of the number of people who, at least partially, embraced Christian theology.

 

First, we have little recorded history of the weak and powerless in Ancient society (most women, slaves, and the poor).

 

Second, it is probable that many Romans (including possibly Severus Alexander) included Christ in their personal pantheon of worshiped deities. Although they weren't technically Christians, they accepted some of the teachings of the Jesus movement.

 

One day I will write on this further.

 

Once again, I recommend the movie to anyone who enjoys Roman history, especially late antiquity.

 

guy also known as gaius

Edited November 27, 2010 by guy

[barca]

 

This depiction of the weaker segments of society being attracted to the Jesus movement supports my belief about the underestimated size of the early Jesus movement.

 

I think the estimate that less than 10% of the Roman Empire was Christian at the time of Constantine's "conversion" is a gross underestimation of the number of people who, at least partially, embraced Christian theology.

 

First, we have little recorded history of the weak and powerless in Ancient society (most women, slaves, and the poor).

 

 

 

Very thought provoking. Those estimates of less than 10% are really guesswork. In truth, we really don't know how prevalent Christianity had become.

 

Their numbers must have been fairly significant as early as the 2nd century. Why else would Romans such as Celsus express concern about them: "Let no one educated, no one wise, no one sensible draw near. For these abilities are thought by us to be evils. But as for anyone ignorant, anyone stupid, anyone uneducated, anyone who is a child, let him come boldly. By the fact that they themselves admit that these people are worthy of their God, they show that they want and are able to convince only the foolish, dishonorable and stupid. and only slaves, women, and little children."

[JP Vieira]

I watched the movie and really enjoyed it; speccially the all atmosfere, the struggles betwen oposing forces: recommnended

[guy]

Their numbers must have been fairly significant as early as the 2nd century. Why else would Romans such as Celsus express concern about them: "Let no one educated, no one wise, no one sensible draw near. For these abilities are thought by us to be evils. But as for anyone ignorant, anyone stupid, anyone uneducated, anyone who is a child, let him come boldly. By the fact that they themselves admit that these people are worthy of their God, they show that they want and are able to convince only the foolish, dishonorable and stupid. and only slaves, women, and little children."

 

Thank you for at least considering my idea that the number of early adherants to Christianity may be greater than commonly accepted since estimates don't take into account the number of females, slaves, and poor who would be attracted to a Jesus movement that preached salvation and afterlife blessings for (especially) the poor and the powerless.

 

I think this quote by Pliny in his letter describing Christians to Trajan is very supportive of this idea:

 

They [the Christians] asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

 

Note that these church deacons were both female and slaves.

 

guy also known as gaius

[Viggen]

I knew i had commented on that movie somewhere http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8227

 

cheers

viggen

[Northern Neil]

During the early third and fourth centuries there were many cults whichwere very similar indeed to Christianity; some of them even had the same miracle stories, and the 'Lord's Prayer' has been around, in one form or another, since the 5th century BC. Maybe Constantine et al simply unified all adherents of these different cults under the umbrella of Christianity. For a lot of people the adoption of Christianity would have been simply a change of name of their deity.

 

But maybe this is a discussion for another forum.

 

I'm not spending any money on this movie.

 

I think maybe Ursus you should, or at least spend time watching it. Whatever the director's personal views, I believe that it is a great movie which has a serious go at portraying a highly important, yet not widely known figure from the ancient world. There does not seem, to me, anything which would lead me to believe that this movie, or rather Hypatia's story, can be seen as allegorical to the modern US. It does, however, portray the battle between reason and blind faith in a way I suspect you will appreciate.

 

Finally - Well done Rachel Weisz, GREAT performance!

[GhostOfClayton]

and the 'Lord's Prayer' has been around, in one form or another, since the 5th century BC.

 

Interesting! Off topic a little, I know, but are you refering to purely Jewish prayer, or are there any pagan/cult origins/influences?

[Northern Neil]

and the 'Lord's Prayer' has been around, in one form or another, since the 5th century BC.

 

Interesting! Off topic a little, I know, but are you refering to purely Jewish prayer, or are there any pagan/cult origins/influences?

yep, so I won't dwell on it long. Aparently it crops up in a Babylonian context round about 500BC. I will PM you when I have looked through my books and found the specific reference!

[Ursus]

The DVD fairy got me a copy, so I was finally able to watch it without having to spend my own money on it,.

 

I want to watch it again, this time with the director's commentary, then you can expect to hear more from me.

 

 

So according to this story, she was killed not for her beliefs really but because she influenced the prefect. Is it true she was helped to die before the stoning or was that part added for the movie?

 

There is no record of anyone coming to her aid when the Christian militants came for her.