Domitian's Dacian Wars - Roma Victrix

[Lanista]

Hi guys - was having a convo with Tony Riches (he of Wounds of Honour and Arrows of Fury fame). He's read a pre-read of my next novel which features a Dacian kicking of the Romans at Tapae in Domitian's campaign. At the first battle, I know that V Alaudae was destroyed, but somewhere in my spurious research, I read that five legions were destroyed. Now, I'm not so sure - novel is in the editing process at the moment, so its an easy fix to make - so, do we know how many legions were lost apart from the fifth?

 

Any advice gratefully received!

 

Cheers

 

Russ

Edited October 28, 2010 by Lanista

[GhostOfClayton]

Try Cassius Dio 67 (or possibly 68). It might just have what you're looking for.

[Lanista]

Hi GoC - yeah, it does - but it only mentions "a large force" which I guess is up for debate *lol*

 

Thanks though, we could be on the right track, I think!

 

Cheers

 

Russ

[GhostOfClayton]

There was also a battle at Tapae under Trajan (101AD). He had at least four legions at his disposal, (Legio II Traiana Fortis, X Gemina, XI Claudia and XXX Ulpia Victrix). He also had the Danube legions to draw on (nine according to WP, but that sounds like a hell of a lot of 'em). Five legions doesn't seem to appear as a magic number anywhere, though.

[Lanista]

I'm sure I read it somewhere, but I just can't find it *lol*

 

Trajan's era is a bit late for me, I needed this to happen in Domitian's reign and my tenuous plot-point was backed up by references on wiki and in the classics - they don't say a lot, which means that we don't know a lot I guess!

 

Cheers

 

Russ

[GhostOfClayton]

I figured it was a long shot. I was really hoping you'd read a snippet of information about the Trajan account that didn't differentiate between the two Battles of Tapae.

 

Given that it wasn't, my next area of research was De Imperatoribus Romanis. This agrees with there being 5 legions in Pannonia, and cites the following:

 

Dusanic, S. and Vasic, M. R. "An Upper Moesian Diploma of AD 96," Chiron 7 (1977): 291-304; Jones, The Emperor Domitian, 153-155.

[Lanista]

And the wikigod agrees - I knew I'd seen it somewhere

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domitian's_Dacian_War

[Melvadius]

Several of the on-line websites dealing with Domitian's campaign in Dacia seem somewhat confused about the number of legions as well as other units involved. From what I have read from several searches and not just the 'Wikigod' there were at least two stages to the inital campaign after the first of which Domitian felt he could return to Rome and claim a 'victory'.

 

It is possible the loss of 'the Larks' occured as a separate action later in the first year of the campaign so the five or six legions could be the total involved initially rather than those decimated although there also seems to be a suggestion that the Praetorian's lost their battle standard as well.

 

There does seem an indication from some sites I browsed that more information may be buried in Tacitus but it wasn't directly referenced most 'Wikipedia' related quote a 1981 work by Jones as their main source and I haven't had a chance to check Tacitus myself so far - maybe tonight.

[GhostOfClayton]

And the wikigod agrees

 

Ah, the good old Wikigod. They should change their tagline

 

Wikipedia: Allowing uneducated hiking guides to undeservedly impress clients, since 2003.

 

I would be nothing without it!

[Lanista]

Hi guys - yep, there were definitely two phases of Dom's war, the first with Fuscus and the second with Tettius Iulianus, that's for sure.

 

Other than that, it is sketchy - I'd like to know where wikigod got its "five or six" legions line from: I'm sure no matter what figure I use, someone on amazon.com will dispute it, but if UNRV is struggling to find hard facts, I'd take that as a fair barometer of how hard it IS to find find hard facts - clearly you guys know your onions on this stuff.

 

Thanks again for all your help

 

Cheers

 

Russ

[GhostOfClayton]

Hopefully Melvadius will find something in Tacitus, but you might find there isn't a primary source, and that Dusanic, Vasic and Jones got their information from people who'd been digging up bits of Romania, and making assumptions based on what they found.

Edited October 28, 2010 by GhostOfClayton

[Melvadius]

Tacitus doesn't seem to have anything surviving from that period in Roman history so with the exception of the limited amount in Cassius Dio I don't know what other sources could have been used by Jones et al for any comments they have made on the campaign.

[GhostOfClayton]

I'd like to know where wikigod got its "five or six" legions line from

 

Me too. De Imperatoribus Romanis is pretty specific about five.

[Melvadius]

Seutonius (never one to dip his stylus in balm when there was vitriol to be had) has very little to say about the Dacian campaign except in Domitian VI

 

His campaigns he undertook partly without provocation and partly of necessity. That against the Chatti was uncalled for, while the one against the Sarmatians was justified by the destruction fo a legion with its commander. He made two against the Dacians, the first when Oppius Sabinus an ex-consul was defeated, and the second on the overthrow of Cornelius Fuscus, prefect of the praetorian guard, to whom he had entrusted the conduct of the war. After several battles of varying success he celebrated a double triumph over the Chatti and the Dacians. His victories over the Sarmatians he commemmorated merely by the offering of a laurel crown to Jupiter of the Capitol.

 

N.B. the footnotes state:

 

Tac Agr 39 says that his unjustified triumph over the Germans (and Dacians) was a laughing stock.

[Lanista]

Thank you gentlemen - I'll go with five. Much appreciated, you are legends.

 

cheers

 

Russ