"got the short end of the stick"

[Crispina]

After reading Nephele's tooth brushing post, I thought I'd offer up this. I was watching a program on the Victorian printing press,and the guy said the term "got the short end of the stick" comes from the improper practice of lining up the letters on the "stick".

 

I got to thinking, did the saying come from the Victorians or could it have orginated from the Romans - "he got the short end of the (sponge) stick".

[Nephele]

I got to thinking, did the saying come from the Victorians or could it have orginated from the Romans - "he got the short end of the (sponge) stick".

 

Hmmm... That's not implausible at all, if you're talking about the expression "got the wrong end of the stick."

 

-- Nephele

[GhostOfClayton]

"Short End of the Stick" comes from the split tally. They never had enough coins in medieval Europe, so parties involved in a transaction would take a stick, mark it with notches, and then split it lengthways. This way the two halves both record the same notches and each party to the transaction received one half of the marked stick as proof. One half (the half belonging to the owing party) would be dilberately shortened. QED. RPTE. (Robertus Patrua Tuus Est).

Edited October 25, 2010 by GhostOfClayton

[Crispina]

"Short End of the Stick" comes from the split tally. They never had enough coins in medieval Europe Common in Europe, so parties involved in a transaction would take a stick, markl it with notches, and then split it lengthways. This way the two halves both record the same notches and each party to the transaction received one half of the marked stick as proof. One half (the half belonging to the owing party) would be dilberately shortened. QED. RPTE. (Robertus Patrua Tuus Est).

 

Ok, I'm being really dense. I don't get the "one half belonging to the owing party would be deliberately shortened"

[GhostOfClayton]

OK, so if I buy, say, half a pound of tuppenny rice off you, and you, as a keen and competitive merchant extend credit to me (there are no coins to be had this side of the Low Countries, so you'd be daft not to.)

 

In order to log that transaction in some kind of unique way, we take a stick of hazelwood, and notch random notches all the way across it. We then split it in two. Each of us has a proof of the transaction that matches only the other half.

 

But what's to stop me coming back to you and saying, "hi Crispina, have you got that penny you owe me?" As a succesful, busy and prosperous merchant, you can't keep track of all your transactions. We match tally sticks, and you say, "oh . . . I suppose I must owe you a penny, Mr OfClayton, the sticks match."

 

I'm lauging all the way to the treacle shop, having stitched you up good and propper.

 

So, to prevent disreputable types like me defrauding good people like you, some kind of fraud prevention measure is called for. Chip & Pin is yet to be invented, so they settled for shortening the ower's stick.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Got to go, my weasel is looking worried!

[Nephele]

But what's to stop me coming back to you and saying, "hi Crispina, have you got that penny you owe me?" As a succesful, busy and prosperous merchant, you can't keep track of all your transactions. We match tally sticks, and you say, "oh . . . I suppose I must owe you a penny, Mr OfClayton, the sticks match."

 

Hmmm... What's to stop you from simply destroying your half of the tally stick, and never going back at all to that rather forgetful merchant?

 

I've never heard that explanation before for the expression "short end of the stick." I have to say that the complexity of it suggests to me that it's a story that's been passed around too many times to be true. Do you have a reference for it, GoC?

 

-- Nephele

[GhostOfClayton]

Come on, Nephele. You know I always use Wikipedia to make me sound cleverer than I actually am!

 

Sadly, there are no individual citations on that page for that particular fact, just general references. And you're right, it would seem too easy for my Medieval alter ego to just drop his half in the cess pit, and deny any knowlege of the transaction when Crispina's heavily-built brothers come knocking.

 

Perhaps his motivation to keep his half is to prove he only owed a penny. After all, Crispina still has her half and she could claim the debt was tuppence. With no proof, Crispina's brothers could extract money from the poor wretch with impunity.

Edited October 25, 2010 by GhostOfClayton

[Nephele]

Come on, Nephele. You know I always use Wikipedia to make me sound cleverer than I actually am!

 

Ah! Wiki or no, you're still pretty clever, GoC.

 

Okay, I checked out the Discussion Page for the Wiki article on "Tally Stick" (your direct link doesn't appear to be working), and here is what they gave:

 

"The saying 'the short end of the stick' has no known relationship with the concept of split tallies. (See the article - The Long Story of The Short End of the Stick, Charles Clay Doyle, American Speech, Vol. 69, No. 1 (Spring, 1994), pp. 96-101.)"

 

I believe this is the article to which they are referring: retrieved from JSTOR.

 

Since this topic relates more to general history (the possible ancient or medieval origin of a popular expression), I'm moving it to the Historia in Universum forum.

 

-- Nephele

[GhostOfClayton]

The saying 'the short end of the stick' has no known relationship with the concept of split tallies. (See the article - The Long Story of The Short End of the Stick, Charles Clay Doyle, American Speech, Vol. 69, No. 1 (Spring, 1994), pp. 96-101.)

 

This is a shame, I was quite getting into the character of my Medieval ne'er-do-well. I'd given him a back-story and everything.

 

You've unearthed a very interesting (albeit a tad graphic) little article from JSTOR, which has put the cat well and truly among the pigeons. And to make things worse you only have to google "short end of the stick" to find any number of proposed origins we hadn't found yet.

 

Good topic!

[Kosmo]

In order to log that transaction in some kind of unique way, we take a stick of hazelwood, and notch random notches all the way across it. We then split it in two. Each of us has a proof of the transaction that matches only the other half.

 

Got to go, my weasel is looking worried!

 

This type of contract proof was used in some mountainous areas long enough to be recorded by moderns. The difference from what you say is that the quantity owed was noted with a number of notches on the stick so it was a proof on how much was owed.

In traditional societies business relations were highly personal and they could be very public and multi-generational. Blatant refusal to pay such a contract could result in loss of honor and face to the extent of turning the offending part into a pariah. The stick was probably a proof accepted in court as well.

In the High Middle Ages of Western Europe a large banking system came into existence and financed large scale long distance trade despite the fact that because the Catholic Church was forbidding interest the loan contracts were very hard to enforce even when they were camouflaged as currency exchange. The entire system rested on trust and worked well except when kings were the debtors...

 

How is the weasel?

[Melvadius]

How is the weasel?

 

He probably went 'pop' as in the 'old' nursery rhyme

 

Just to confirm GoC's comments about the tally's being of uneven sizes this was the habit with English tally sticks issued by the Exchequer as stated on the National Archive website

 

After the notches were made on the stick, the shaft was split lengthways into two pieces of unequal length, both pieces having the same notches. The longer piece (the stock) was given to the payer and the Exchequer officials retained the shorter piece (the foil). When the accounts were audited, the two pieces were fitted together to see if they would 'tally'.

 

 

Although this is not always the case with Tally's issued in other parts of the woprld and other periods Wikipedia has an interesting image showing a selection of differently shaped tallys from the Swiss Alps

[GhostOfClayton]

How is the weasel?

 

He probably went 'pop' as in the 'old' nursery rhyme

 

A picture paints 1000 words.

 

Seriously though, Wikipedia didn't go into too much detail about the format of notches on the Split Tally. I admit to filling in some of the gaps with my own assumptions.

[Kosmo]

How is the weasel?

 

He probably went 'pop' as in the 'old' nursery rhyme

 

A pop up weasel?