Stress

[longbow]

hi all, i was wondering about the state of mind of your average legion soldier.Our soldiers today suffer from variouse stress disorders because of what they whitness during battle,the legion battles were a lot closer and more gruesome than they are today.Did any legionares suffer from stress? i realise that the world was a different place back then and life was cheap but still it must be pretty damaging to the mind killing with those types of weapons(or any type of weapon). any ideas??? thx L

[Primus Pilus]

I'm sure there were 'disorders' but people, society and environments were different in the ancient world. Soldiers have a common bond no matter the time period, but in the ancient world, there were not nearly so many defined societal establishments trying to reinforce that their actions, thier professions and that they themselves as soldiers were inherently bad. In relation there wasnot an over abundance of psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists, etc. preying on humanity and trying to enforce their views that the human mind is pathetically weak on everyone, as they're doing today. This is not to suggest however, that there still weren't plenty of quacks in the ancient world

 

As for the original question, yes I would assume many soldiers struggled with what they saw after a bitter battle or campaign. There is not alot of direct evidence... ie letters from soldiers... but there is some perifery evidence in the form of the description of a soldier's mindset.. ie Caesar. However these descriptions are generally battlefield related and not post-trauma, and are tainted by the propoganda of the person writing it.

[Jimbow]

I'm sure there were 'disorders'

 

 

Of course there were; Caligula being one of the best examples.

 

Soldiers have a common bond no matter the time period, but in the ancient world, there were not nearly so many defined societal establishments trying to reinforce that their actions, thier professions and that they themselves as soldiers were inherently bad.

 

 

And you know how? Besides, you assume that these days the majority of people think soldiers are bad.

 

psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists, etc. preying on humanity and trying to enforce their views that the human mind is pathetically weak on everyone, as they're doing today.

 

 

No, many recognise and try to treat with the knowledge that there is a difference between the conscious and often more powerful subconscious, which is why I'm off to for hypnotherapy tomorrow to quit smoking after 21 years. A brain is a brain, 10 years old, or 2000 years old. Along with, in ancient times, the brutalisation within society comes the child rape, sexual abuse, and physical abuse and torture, which must have affected the individual. Or, do you think these are character building and acceptable? Again, it could be said Caligula was a victim of many of these things, look at his family history, and look at the psychopathic monster he turned into. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to put yourself into the shoes of a child who lost so much and in turn had so much. Especially with an indulgent uncle who is sometimes romanticised as not being that bad, Tiberius. Power corrupts, but it's for a reason, not divine intervention.

 

I think the potential psychological research of the ancients is fascinating, and could probably provide more of a link between them and us than any other field of study could. They were as human as we are now. I agree, attitudes and levels of disgust were very likely (if not definitely) different, but I think nostalgia can be a very dangerous thing. It's usually false. I imagine the more the legionaries had to gut someone they dealt with it in their own way. But, I really believe it had an effect. How many 'modern' soldiers have had no exposure to 'psycho-babble' but have had post-traumatic stress'? Many. A good proportion of the survivors of Rouke's Drift committed suicide, and they had no access to the so-called psycho-babble. Generally, professionals these days deal with the effects of someone else doing something to someone else, and they try to fix it. You can say that of many soldiers also. That brings to mind the question; did Roman soldiers also try to prevent and fix bad occurences, which helped balance the really awful things they were expected to do at times? Let's face it, Rome didn't have half the atrocities that we have seen in the last century. I don't know the answer, but I wouldn't expect an historian to give an accurate answer either. I would trust a psycologist or psychiatrist to give a more accurate answer.

 

'The Madness of King George' was brilliant. Here was a king who seemed to be potty. But, once his symptoms had been examined, historically and through research, it was "Aha! That's why!" Don't you find that interesting?

[Guest spartacus]

From my studies of the ancient world and battlefield conditions, stress was present especially when armies formed up for battle, if memory serves me correctly, it was Polybius who stated that in the front ranks especially, the stench of urine was over-whelming! Some troops even fainting!

 

It is hard to envisage what is like unless you have actually experienced a situation where you could lose your life at any given moment ! From a personnal viewpoint, I served as a Royal Marine, in that time I encountered numerous stressful situations, the way I dealt with it was not to think about getting injured just concentrate on what I was doing and stay focused! the moment your mind wanders about the dangers, thats when the gremlins kick in and you are not only a danger to yourself but also the men around you! We were always offered councilling, but very few took up the offer!

 

It is also known that the few survivors of the Tractor Factory during the siege of Stalingrad all suffered mental problems, some being put in asylums!

 

During WWI, as well documentated, the term shell-shock was used to describe a mental illness stemming from battlefield conditions

 

The subject of stress in war-time is a vast subject with a range of symptoms and one worthy of debate, an interesting subject indeed, but as previously suggested, a doctor would be more qualified to give a suitable answer

[Jimbow]

This book may be of interest: 'Acts of War' by Richard Holmes.

 

Description at Amazon: Acts of War

[Primus Pilus]

you assume that these days the majority of people think soldiers are bad.

 

 

No, I assume that most of the people in the most liberal of professions do.

 

I would trust a psycologist or psychiatrist to give a more accurate answer.

 

 

Obviously, I would not, LOL. Don't get me wrong, though. The medicine of the brain is a real thing with great benefits to society and humanity. What I am talking about is the run of the mill 'Oprah/Doctor Phil' bullsh*t that people suck up like the latest ridiculous fad. How many people in today's society don't have some sort of phobia/disorder/condition based on some of these f'd up principals? Nobody just has a bad day anymore. Nobody wakes up on the wrong side of the bed. A person cant just be a regular old asshole, he must be labelled with something instead. Everything is explained by some deeply rooted steaming pile of crap that I find quite hilarious.

 

Besides, I didn't intend to illustrate that the Romans didn't suffer serious mental side effects of their environments. I was not clear at all and for that I apologize. I only meant to point out the vast difference that certainly existed between ancient society and the modern. In my zeal against quack psychiatry, I went on a tangent.

 

'The Madness of King George' was brilliant. Here was a king who seemed to be potty. But, once his symptoms had been examined, historically and through research, it was "Aha! That's why!" Don't you find that interesting?

 

 

Yes an excellent film. I don't know about the complete accuracy, but George's condition is now widely accepted, and from what I understand protrayed quite well in that movie.

 

Along with, in ancient times, the brutalisation within society comes the child rape, sexual abuse, and physical abuse and torture, which must have affected the individual. Or, do you think these are character building and acceptable?

 

 

No, its reality. Of course it affects an individual. As I said above, I am not saying that battlefield stress and post-traumatic syndromes, or other mental disorders don't exist. It would be ridiculous to deny a proven truth. I am dead set against the common 'maladies' that seem to affect so many in our society today when most childhood stresses should be considered a learning experience, even some of the bad ones.

 

it could be said Caligula was a victim of many of these things, look at his family history, and look at the psychopathic monster he turned into. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to put yourself into the shoes of a child who lost so much and in turn had so much. Especially with an indulgent uncle who is sometimes romanticised as not being that bad, Tiberius. Power corrupts, but it's for a reason, not divine intervention

 

 

Caligula turned into a bonafied loon. Power corrupted him most certainly, and I'm sure he was affected by the political machinations and 'circumstantial deaths of so many relatives. However, I believe Tiberius' debauchery is at least somewhat unfounded. He was a victim of aristocrat hatred. Indeed he was a victim of the Principate that he seemingly didn't want much part of. Was he a good man? Hard to think so when he was hated by so many. But wasn't that hatred more because of his dereliction of duty in the face of Sejanus' atrocities, and not because he supposedly preferred little boys on Capri? Painting him with that picture sure makes him more readily disliked and helps highlight the good qualities of the Emperor who commissioned the latest work of history. I don't deny that there is probably some truth to it, I just tend to think there is as much propoganda in that, as there is in all ancient source material.

 

But obviously, I digress.

[Scaevola]

Here's a book suggestion (you've probably read it though):

The Western Way of War by Victor Davis Hanson, 2000.

 

Connections with modern times:

The Romans seemed to employ training and formation to lessen the impact of death close at hand.

For instance- you knew that if everyone maintained their intervals and the ranks filled as necessary, your actual fighting time could be fairly brief as reinforcements could move up and exhausted troops pull back for a breather. Or, just stick to your job, do it like in drill and concentrate on doing it right rather than worrying about death or injury.

 

That is why rigid formations were, for so very long, necessary on the battlefield...even after relative killing power made them more dangerous than an open skirmish line.

 

I would also hazard to guess that delaying stress, just like today, would have had some similar results on the men. Dreams, sweats and mood swings...which if I remember correctly some surviving plays mention as well as some classical histories.

 

The professional legionaires of imperial times would have had more support from each other than the citizen soldiers of early Rome...being that later legions spent longer and longer terms of service with each other and in ranks of other long term veterans. The citizen soldier experience would have been closer to the greek experience detailed in Hanson's book, imho. A common bond of living and working together, as well as family ties, with other citizen soldiers, but not necessarily the understanding that the more professional legionaires had for each other.

 

Of course the latter legions were subjected to far more brutal treatment, so that too may have stoked the delayed stress reaction. Maybe delayed stress reaction was a proximal cause in legion revolts since units that had more fighting under their belts had a lower rate of insubordination...implying more experience in dealing with delayed stress. I'll have to see if that thesis holds any water.

[P.Clodius]

Remember folks, any physical or mental affliction was seen to be the fault of the individual afflicted. Rome was a tough place to live.

[Jimbow]

What I am talking about is the run of the mill 'Oprah/Doctor Phil' bullsh*t that people suck up like the latest ridiculous fad.

 

 

Ah, PrimusPilus, are you in the USA? If so, I think I see why you hate the New-Age-While-Wearing-Burberry-Nazis so much.

 

You've got good points. I think the points Scaevola also makes are revealing, especially the use of rigid formations. Never thought of that before. I think I'll be getting that book too.

 

Anyways, I got bumped out of the Name Game (flippin' cheat so what do I know?

[Primus Pilus]

Ah, PrimusPilus, are you in the USA? If so, I think I see why you hate the New-Age-While-Wearing-Burberry-Nazis so much.

Indeed, our culture has me hopelessly jaded and cynical far before my time