Decent contributions from notorious tyrants?

[caesar novus]

I remember being confused about some advances of architecture and painting style happening under Nero's direction, then realized being a tyrant doesn't mean you say no to every good idea. History forgets, for instance, that Hitler brought about innovative freeway systems, political campaigning by airplane visits, and green-ness in the form of his vegetarianism. I suspect that even Caligula did some good, but can't remember. Would anyone care to list some good contributions whose origin is forgotten due to the monstrous reputation of the emperor?

Edited June 13, 2010 by caesar novus

[Caius Maxentius]

Despite his reputation for brutality (including fratricide), Caracalla's reign was marked by generous building projects in various places that he visited, and his extension of Roman citizenship to all free citizens of the empire might be considered progressive for its time.

 

As an add-on to this question, are there any emperors who are remembered well for the good things they did, while having a nasty side that gets mostly overlooked?

Edited June 13, 2010 by Caius Maxentius

[caesar novus]

As an add-on to this question, are there any emperors who are remembered well for the good things they did, while having a nasty side that gets mostly overlooked?

I remember a lecture about the 5 good emperors where excuses were made for their bad behavior, and how "good" was used in very narrow realpolitik terms of the time. Except for Marcus Aurelius, maybe their goodness was partly just an inability to father a son and having to name a successor based on merit rather than their demon seed.

 

Actually I wasn't thinking about whether behavior was mixed good and bad. I was thinking the birth of lasting cultural icons that were steppingstones to where we are today... but coming from an unsavory source. I forget the details, but I believe Nero's palace octagon room was a huge step towards later domed civic and church buildings. Caligula is sometimes credited with laying the engineering groundworks for the integration of Britain into Roman civilization.

 

Hitler's freeways amazed Eisenhower who pushed for them in the US and they later transformed the world for better or worse. Hitler's unprecedented campaigning by air travel during his brief democratic phase allowed voters in vast countries (later elsewhere) live exposure to candidates.

Edited June 14, 2010 by caesar novus

[Centurion-Macro]

As Caesar was technically a tyrant, he conquered new lands for the Republic, and opened the senate up to the best men in the Republic, not just the richest men in Rome.

 

~History forgets that Hitler was a brilliant politician, and he got Germany out of the depression it was in in the 1930's by building up the industry again. Had he not declared war, I am certain Hitler would have been declared a hero by the world, even if he did dislike Jews.

[caldrail]

As Caesar was technically a tyrant, he conquered new lands for the Republic, and opened the senate up to the best men in the Republic, not just the richest men in Rome.

 

~History forgets that Hitler was a brilliant politician, and he got Germany out of the depression it was in in the 1930's by building up the industry again. Had he not declared war, I am certain Hitler would have been declared a hero by the world, even if he did dislike Jews.

 

Hitler was not universally admired at the time. Whilst some pointed at his re-invigorated country, bear in mind he was also regarded as a dangerous looney by the more intuitive observers in the 1930's. Further, Hitler did not declare war. He was annexing european territory on some very shabby exuses, sent troops to Spain against the League of Nations rulings against foreign involvement, and Britain declared war on him in 1939 to honour their promise to guarantee Polands frontiers. The only declaration of war I know Hitler actually made was in 1942, when he formalised hostilities against the United States.

 

(Okay, I see he declared war on the Allies in 1941, and also Russia).

 

As for Caesar, lets not forget that he had no intention of opening up the senate for others. All he wanted was political - and financial - success for himself. Remember that he burst into tears on seeing a statue of Alexander the Great. "Why are you crying, Caesar?" Asked his aides.

 

"Because at my age he had conquered the world, and I have done nothing" Replied Caesar.

Edited June 14, 2010 by caldrail

[barca]

I remember being confused about some advances of architecture and painting style happening under Nero's direction, then realized being a tyrant doesn't mean you say no to every good idea...Would anyone care to list some good contributions whose origin is forgotten due to the monstrous reputation of the emperor?

 

 

Nero did not perceive himself as others did. He was quoted as saying "What an artist dies in me". He considered himself a great thespian.

 

Let's not forget that as a youth he was immersed in the philosophy of Senneca, but that didn't prevent him from eventually becoming a ruthless despot.

 

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.

Lord Acton, Historical Essays and Studies.

 

And you're going to be treading on thin ice if you become an apologist for Hitler's regime.

[Melvadius]

~History forgets that Hitler was a brilliant politician, and he got Germany out of the depression it was in in the 1930's by building up the industry again. Had he not declared war, I am certain Hitler would have been declared a hero by the world, even if he did dislike Jews.

 

Not to drift too far off topic - an interesting viewpoint but I would tend to agree with Barca on this.

 

Possibly Hitler did build up German industry again - however a large percentage of that rebuiding was mainly aimed at building up military power with civilian development a secondary byproduct.

 

Germany ended up with a massive military presence which was a drain on the economy which may well at least partly explain why Hitler did start invading other countries. Without that move German may well have become bankrupt again.

[caesar novus]

And you're going to be treading on thin ice if you become an apologist for Hitler's regime.

That's exactly the attitude that can stifle enlightment on the issue, and the reason for this thread. People have been afraid to describe advances of civilization in those cases where a reprehensible person was responsible, and the story becomes lost. Freeways were just an obvious thing that came from the sky. Every major Christian domed church looks like Nero's octagon room throughout 2000 years only due to habit... and just forget Nero's brilliant architects Severus and Celer because a bad person happened to approve of their work.

 

It would be a shame to tiptoe around and be hesitant to describe real history as it was due to self censorship. This thread has maintained the contempt for the bad guys with adjectives like demonic, notorious, tyrants, and so on. The bad can do many good things which don't at all lessen the seriousness of their crimes or depravity.

 

I think it's fair to say the single most important room that I will have shown you thus far this semester is the octagonal room of Nero's Domus Aurea.

Edited June 14, 2010 by caesar novus

[Primus Pilus]

How about a couple of Caesar's laws... proposed and passed after the consolidation of his own power though, of course.

 

The Lex Iulia de Provinciis of 46 that limited propraetorial and proconsular commands to 1 and 2 years respectively. Of course, once the Republic was ultimately destroyed, this law was rather meaningless. Good in theory though, especially had it applied to Caesar directly about a decade or so earlier.

 

And how about that Lex Iulia de Calendari of the same year that fixed the calendar. Completely authoritarian tyranny, sure, but at least everyone knew when to plant those crops on time.

[barca]

That's exactly the attitude that can stifle enlightment on the issue, and the reason for this thread. People have been afraid to describe advances of civilization in those cases where a reprehensible person was responsible, and the story becomes lost.

 

I understand your concern, and I was merely pointing out you can expect controversy when you bring up these subjects, because they tend to be emotionally charged.

[Maty]

'I have brought together these acts of his, some of which are beyond criticism, while others are even deserving of considerable praise, so as to separate them from the shameful and criminal acts which make up the rest of this history.'

 

That's a quote from Seutonius (Life of Nero 19). Seems appropriate here.

 

Incidentally Nero also introduced some very sensible building regulations which lasted for most of subsequent Roman history. This largely explains why city-wide conflagrations ceased to be an exciting feature of life in the capital.

[Brucecarson]

Caligula built one of the longest (the longest?) pontoon bridge in history, across the bay of Baiae. I think the point of it was to impress a foreign prince, which seems a bit silly, but still a quite a feat.

[Centurion-Macro]

Hitler was not universally admired at the time. Whilst some pointed at his re-invigorated country, bear in mind he was also regarded as a dangerous looney by the more intuitive observers in the 1930's. Further, Hitler did not declare war. He was annexing european territory on some very shabby exuses, sent troops to Spain against the League of Nations rulings against foreign involvement, and Britain declared war on him in 1939 to honour their promise to guarantee Polands frontiers. The only declaration of war I know Hitler actually made was in 1942, when he formalised hostilities against the United States.

 

(Okay, I see he declared war on the Allies in 1941, and also Russia).

 

As for Caesar, lets not forget that he had no intention of opening up the senate for others. All he wanted was political - and financial - success for himself. Remember that he burst into tears on seeing a statue of Alexander the Great. "Why are you crying, Caesar?" Asked his aides.

 

"Because at my age he had conquered the world, and I have done nothing" Replied Caesar.

I would disagree with that. After the depression, the Nazi party were the German heroes, and millions became party members. Hitler managed to do what he wanted for years - The Rhineland, Sudatenland, army, navy, air force, Panzer Korps...all built up by Hitler, and the allies did nothing. You could say the Allies were weak, but in my opinion, Hitler was smart, and knew that Germany wanted. Germany did not want the 1919 treaty, and so he basically spat on it and did what he needed to do. German soldiers were welcomed into the Rhineland, as well as the Sudatenland. The Germans believed him to be hero, and to be honest, all the research I have done, no one minded that he disliked the Jews, as he was just such a good leader to them (until war of course).

 

~But back to topic, Caesar was indeed very political, and he did want more. I just wish he could have had a crack at the Parthians before being killed. It would be interesting to see how he would have fared.