Warrior Greeks.

[Centurion-Macro]

Were there any other cities or towns etc, that had Spartan like soldiers, or such dedications to soldiering?

 

I am not that educated in Greek history, and I find it odd that the Spartans are all we hear about. Surely the Athenians had good soldiers also, as they won the Battle of Marathon, but were there any other places in Greece that had extremely good soldiers? Because the Spartans seem to be the only ones we hear about these days.

[barca]

Were there any other cities or towns etc, that had Spartan like soldiers, or such dedications to soldiering?

 

I am not that educated in Greek history, and I find it odd that the Spartans are all we hear about. Surely the Athenians had good soldiers also, as they won the Battle of Marathon, but were there any other places in Greece that had extremely good soldiers? Because the Spartans seem to be the only ones we hear about these days.

 

I would start with the Thebans and the sacred band, since they defeated the Spartans at Leuctra. The Macedonians subsequently defeated the Thebans at Chaeronea.

 

Greek warfare was evolving. The old hoplite phalanx was gradually replaced by the Sarissa pike phalanx, which was designed as an anti-hoplite formation. Even the Spartans eventually adopted the Sarissa.

[Centurion-Macro]

So at different times, different cities held the advantage?

 

Then why are the Spartans so idolized?

[Kosmo]

So at different times, different cities held the advantage?

 

Then why are the Spartans so idolized?

 

Since Antiquity there was always a fascination about spartan totalitarianism that has little to do with Sparta's realities or spartan military qualities.

The first volume of "The Open Society and Its Enemies" by Karl Popper has some interesting points about this and there are several other analyses on why even Athenian historians and philosophers idolized Sparta. It has do mostly with a political preference of what was perceived as a traditionalist, stable, orderly, egalitarian, rational and moral society in contrast with messy and fluctuating democracies and tyrannies.

[barca]

Since Antiquity there was always a fascination about spartan totalitarianism that has little to do with Sparta's realities or spartan military qualities.

The first volume of "The Open Society and Its Enemies" by Karl Popper has some interesting points about this and there are several other analyses on why even Athenian historians and philosophers idolized Sparta. It has do mostly with a political preference of what was perceived as a traditionalist, stable, orderly, egalitarian, rational and moral society in contrast with messy and fluctuating democracies and tyrannies.

 

A totalitarian society can be tradionalist, stable, orderly, but I'm not sure about egalitarian. I generally think of a totalitarian system as elitist.

Rational? I would think that the free-thinking Athenians were more advanced from an intellectual standpoint.

Moral? Maybe, depending what aspects of morality you place emphasis? The work ethic, which is what the Spartans valued most is only one aspect of morality.

[Kosmo]

Sorry for being confusing again.

Following Popper I see Sparta as totalitarian, even more then the Zulu empire of Shaka, and I have a low opinion on it; while others see Sparta with the attributes I listed above (again - I disagree with them and I see Sparta as militaristic, static and elitist)

I said rational because Sparta was seen as the result of the reforms of Lycurg, a society constructed according to a plan, like the various utopias thinkers like to come up with, then and now.

[Turb0!]

Were there any other cities or towns etc, that had Spartan like soldiers, or such dedications to soldiering?

 

I am also more of a Romanophile, but I do know that at the Battle of Thermopylae, which the Spartans are most remembered for, the 300 Spartans were accompanied by an additional contingent of Thesbian soldiers who also fought to the death. In fact I recall that the monument which the Greeks set up in honor of Thermopylae after the Persian War mentions the bravery of both the Spartans and the Thesbians.

 

Side Note: my spelling may be incorrect for the Thesbians and I believe that the source I read this from was Herodotus, but anyone who knows better, by all means, feel free to correct me on this.

[Ursus]

While the Spartans had a peculiar system dedicated to perpetual military preparedness, warrior arete was nonetheless held in high esteem by all Greeks.

[Centurion-Macro]

I am also more of a Romanophile, but I do know that at the Battle of Thermopylae, which the Spartans are most remembered for, the 300 Spartans were accompanied by an additional contingent of Thesbian soldiers who also fought to the death. In fact I recall that the monument which the Greeks set up in honor of Thermopylae after the Persian War mentions the bravery of both the Spartans and the Thesbians.

 

Side Note: my spelling may be incorrect for the Thesbians and I believe that the source I read this from was Herodotus, but anyone who knows better, by all means, feel free to correct me on this.

The Thespians? I will look into this. I have actually never heard of them before.

[Turb0!]

The Thespians? I will look into this. I have actually never heard of them before.

 

I believe so, but I am recalling the name entirely by memory. In any case I remember reading a portion of Herodotus having to do with Thermopylae when I took a Greek history course, and it mentioned another group which stayed and fought to the death with the Spartans after it became clear they would lose and soldiers from all the other poleis had fled. I will look this up too, since now I'm wondering if my memory has played a trick on me or not, haha.

[Turb0!]

Okay Macro, using my handy-dandy, fancy-shmancy kindle, I found the passage from Herodotus that I was referring to:

 

"The allies then who were dismissed departed and went away, obeying the word of Leonidas, and only the Thespians and the Thebans remained behind with the Lacedemonians. Of these the Thebans remained behind against their will and not because they desired it, for Leonidas kept them, counting them as hostages; but the Thespians very willingly, for they said that they would not depart and leave Leonidas and those with him, but they stayed behind and died with them."

 

However, I cannot find whatever passage made me think that the Thespians were also mentioned on a monument to Thermopylae but there you have it. The Thespians were also brave enough to stay with Leonidas and fight the rhinos and the giant fat guy with sword arms.

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

Most city states had citizen warriors who held weapons in training and in war but did not spend their life training or warring. Sparta, on the other hand, needed to always train it's citizen because they had too many hilote (slave-like population of vainquished neighbors) to hold under their fist. So they had more unit cohesion and better endurence on the battle field and did indeed win a lot of fights, even in numerical inferiority. Of course they could lose some battles, because they were a tad too conventionnal and could be surprised in bad positions or by new tactics, and they could also loose because they had too much wine before the battle (thus a very famous defeat that sealed their fate, crushed by the Thebans).

Athenians were also know as a good army and an even better navy, with a ship borne infantry (epibates) of superior quality. Marathon and Salamine are testimonies to this fact, but other fights against the greeks (instead of the barbarians) are also good proofs of the Athenians value : simply look at the battle of Pylos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pylos) or at the battle of Idomene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Idomene) for an exemple.

The Thebans had their high and their low, but were at their best in the 4th century BC when they destroyed the power of Sparta, before falling to the Macedonian later in the century (and before being destroyed by Alexander the Great). One of the characteristics of Thebe was it's ready access to Thessalian cavalry (the land made horse breeding difficult outside of the plains of Thessaly). They also had the famous Sacred Band of 300 warriors who atteined the peak of their glory under Epamimondas, the general who beat Sparta.

The Macedonian would also be the last great continental Greeks to have a great army, but they were not "true" Greeks.

In Magna Graecia (southern Italy and Sicily) the power of Syracusae was the greatest, and they had powerfull armies that often clashed with great success against the Carthaginian in the 5th and 4th century BC. Colony of Sparta, Syracusae was a powerfull city which was also able to fight of an Athenian invasion force.

 

Does that provide you with more informations on the Greeks ?

[Lanista]

and they could also loose because they had too much wine before the battle (thus a very famous defeat that sealed their fate, crushed by the Thebans).

 

Fascinating! I've never heard that before, can you elaborate? Most common wisdom dictates that the Spartans were famous for lack of excess, so getting hammered before a battle is certainly something they're not known for. Please can you elaborate on this, I'd love to hear more! :-)

 

Cheers

 

Russ