Dacian swords

[diegis]

This are 2 articles, about curved knives and swords used by Dacians (north thracians) and in the case of "sica" by southern thracians too.

 

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/nemvs/nemus%202009/4.pdf

 

This is about "sica" (usual considered a dagger, but some including shorter swords under this name as well), and have a short english text from page 14 on, as well several sica blades discovered, and their dimensions

 

http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf

 

This one is about the even more famous "Falx Dacica", as well have a short article in english, from page 10 on, and present most of the falx blades (very few, unfortunately) discovered until now, with images and dimensions

 

This was the "national" weapons of Dacians, made famous especialy during Daco-Roman wars from 101-102 and 105-106 AD, a feared weapons who had a sinister fame among roman soldiers.

[barca]

http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf

 

This one is about the even more famous "Falx Dacica", as well have a short article in english, from page 10 on, and present most of the falx blades (very few, unfortunately) discovered until now, with images and dimensions

 

This was the "national" weapons of Dacians, made famous especialy during Daco-Roman wars from 101-102 and 105-106 AD, a feared weapons who had a sinister fame among roman soldiers.

 

 

The Falx is an interesting weapon. The curvature is in the opposite direction of the Katana (Japanese Samurai Sword)

[Yehudah]

I've seen reconstructions of Dacians fighting with stabbing swords like those of Roman legionaries. Were these adopted from the Romans, or the Celts?

[caldrail]

The Celts had no cultural leanings toward stabbing weapons. They were instead prone to swinging blades about whilst shouting very loudly, presumably to intimidate their enemies. As for the Dacians themselves, the use of a curved blade indicates slashing attacks. Any use of stabbing weapons by the Dacians is likely to be an import of Roman customs, or possibly a mistake in the reconstruction.

[Kosmo]

I've seen reconstructions of Dacians fighting with stabbing swords like those of Roman legionaries. Were these adopted from the Romans, or the Celts?

 

Gladius is too wide to be considered a stabbing weapon and it was also used for cutting. Gladius is not a very special weapon, swords of different lengths were common all around Europe.

Straight swords are common in the area of Dacia since the Bronze Age when micenian weapons are produced here. Dacia had close ties with greek cities, macdonians and later with romans. Iron Age dacian metallurgy was influenced by La Tene (celtic) culture but by the time of the wars against the romans that was an already distant past.

[caldrail]

Gladius too wide to be considered a stabbing weapon? That's not what the Romans say. According to Polybius, Romans were taught very strctly to stab and thrust with it. Things got a bit looser later on, as Livy tells us that legionaries were swinging their swords half the time.

[GhostOfClayton]

Gladius too wide to be considered a stabbing weapon? That's not what the Romans say.

 

Tend to agree. The beauty of the Gladius was in a tight formation, where you were well protected by yours and your fellow legionaries' shields. There isn't much room to swing a sword. I would say the standard tactic was to raise the shield slightly to defend a swinging attack from the Celtic ne'er-do-well on the opposing side, thus creating a small gap through which you could "stick it in, twist it, pull it out". Where do I get that quote from? Was it from "It Ain't Half Hot, Mum"

[Kosmo]

Gladius was a straight, short, wide weapon with two sharp edges that allowed both thrusting and cutting. I can't tell if romans had a doctrine about the proper use of the weapon but I can bet that any soldier would have cut the enemy if he had the chance, that's why they gave edges to the sword.

Pure thrusting swords tend to be longer and narrower and sometimes have no sharpened sides at all. Some even have a round or triangular section to make them more resistant to bending/breaking.

Fighting in tight formation does not mean that one cannot use a cutting movement like a descending blow to the head or one aimed at the hand of the opponent. When fighting against an enemy equipped with a shield and eventually a spear a thrusting short sword is not very useful and contrary to the widespread image the roman infantry fought usually against other heavy infantry not celtic irregulars waving swords and axes.

[GhostOfClayton]

I don't think we're actually in that much disagreement here. It would make sense to give the Gladius a sharp edge, though the Gladius' edge would be used for cutting/chopping motions rather than the type of slashing a cavalry soldier may do (yes, semantics!). Also, the Spatha (basically a longer version of the Gladius with a blood gutter) gradually took over from the Gladius as a heavy infantry sword, with the Gladius being 'relegated' to light infantry. I don't know how that coincided with the reducing use of tight formation legionary fighting.

[caldrail]

It coincided with the general decay of Roman legions in the 4th century. In fact, prior to the widespread adoption of the spatha by infantry, there had been a trend toward a shorter sword used in an increasingly florid manner, a parallel with swordplay in the arena, though it isn't clear who was copying who, so we can regard that as a fashion in fighting style in cultural terms.

 

Regardless of the cutting edge, the deployment of a legion in tight formation precluded the 'swing' as a means of attack because you had no room to do that, as the sword was restricted to a narrow gap between shields. Of course the reality is that Roman formations weren't always going to be parade ground perfect, especially in the midst of a bloody melee, but we can be fairly sure that human nature and training will out thus the Romans kept a close proximity to each other, for psychological reasonsas much as practicality, and thus as Polybius tells us, the strict regime of being taught to thrust exclusively prevailed.

 

It is interesting that Livy tells us something different about the swordplay of his time. He says that Romans were swinging swords as much as thrusting with them. Perhaps that's a dramatic description rather than a real appraisal of combat, but it certainly conforms to evidence of shortening sword length in imperial times which actually required more nerve and skill to fight effectively, and the reduction of the centurionate and training standards in the fourth century precipitated the adoption of the spatha by men who preferred to keep the enemy at arms length. One might also point at the increasing foreign influence in legions and wonder if the former barbarian soldier was more comfortable with swords of a length he was accustomed to.

 

It is important to realise then that although the sword length went from very short to much longer very quickly, the style of swordplay hadn't changed to a great degree. However, the use of a longer sword in a swing dictates you must have the room to do that, requiring looser formations and less formation discipline. We know the centurionate declined as a guarantor of traditional methodology (one of its primary purposes) from the civil wars that led to Constantines reign, and Vegetius informs us in the De Re Militaris that the strength and substance of Roman legions had gone.

 

This phenomenon might be depicted as a symptom of success. Whilst Rome fought border wars on a continuing basis and thus retained some body of experience, the influence of the Pax Romana was to introduce an element of anachronistic style, fashion, and perhaps even public expectation of how Roman soldiers ought to fight. This might seem hard to reconcile in the modern day, but bear in mind that many Romans had no experience of the legions. There was no media revealing the true gritty nature of soldiering and the bloody aftermath of battle. Cicero for instance lauded the arena for showing ordinary Romans how a man, even one reduced to slavery, could show courage, and thus a public is prepared for battle. For these civilian Romans, the only experience of combat was that of the arena, a highly stylised version of fighting for entertainment, and I suspect an element of fantasy became part of the aura that surrounded the legion for those with little direct contact with them, and thus the increasingly florid style of swordplay with ever shorter blades is imposed on the legions until the will to confront had withered and a measure of circumspection by legionaries reasserted itself.

[diegis]

Dacians had too the right, short sword similar with Gladius, but aparently most spread was the Sica, somehow similar in lenght, maybe a little shorter, but having a curvature (looking like a giant claw) and able to be used not just for slashing, but even for stabbing too in diferent angles, easier then a right sword, especialy when your sheild is pushing in the enemy shield and the space of the battle was full of peoples.

 

Falx was a bigger Sica i think, and was designed to bypass the shield. Due to shape and weight it can pierce a helmet with its tip, from above, it can easily cut legs (in a kind of schyte or hook and pull move) and arms, and, due to same shape and system of use it can used in more confined space, dont need the same space as a long Celtic like sword. It was possible as well to hook and pull the enemy shield, unbalancing him and drag him down

 

Gladius was however very good for Roman formations and warfare style

[Tribunicus Potestus]

Gladius too wide to be considered a stabbing weapon? That's not what the Romans say. According to Polybius, Romans were taught very strctly to stab and thrust with it. Things got a bit looser later on, as Livy tells us that legionaries were swinging their swords half the time.

I have to agree here. The romans were horrified when they saw the types of wounds created by long slashing swords. They shouldn't have been. Stabbing wounds if they are deep enough and in the torso are invariably fatal without modern intervention while slashing wounds even terrible ones can be survived.

 

When Rapiers and Small Swords were developed in Europe the broad swords were abandoned. Their thrusting stabbing attacks and increased deadliness made it a no brainer. Only with cavalry did the dual purpose Saber survive.