Dido and Aeneas

[barca]

The founding of Carthage is estimated to be somewhere around 800 or 900 BC

 

The fall of Troy probably around 1200 BC or more

 

Can we be sure about these dates? Is it possible that the Trojan war was more recent than is generally accepted?

 

Was the legend of Dido and Aeneas in existance long bfore Vergil or did he just make it up?

[Segestan]

The founding of Carthage is estimated to be somewhere around 800 or 900 BC

 

The fall of Troy probably around 1200 BC or more

 

Can we be sure about these dates? Is it possible that the Trojan war was more recent than is generally accepted?

 

Was the legend of Dido and Aeneas in existance long bfore Vergil or did he just make it up?

 

 

The Tale of Aeneas existed long before Virgil. The Romans nobles were from the Trojan blood line. I suggest you read Charles Rollins ' The Roman History' , one of the very best re-tellings of Roman History. ..... http://www.archive.org/stream/romanhistory...age/n9/mode/2up

[Klingan]

The Romans nobles were from the Trojan blood line.

 

*the Roman nobles claimed to be from the Trojan blood line. It's important to remember that they weren't, in reality, from Troy (if anyone can prove otherwise, I'd love to read about it).

[Ursus]

The founding of Carthage is estimated to be somewhere around 800 or 900 BC

 

The fall of Troy probably around 1200 BC or more

 

Can we be sure about these dates? Is it possible that the Trojan war was more recent than is generally accepted?

 

 

I think those dates are pretty solid as far as the archaeological evidence allows. There is just no way refugees from Troy could have ended up in Carthage.

[Northern Neil]

The Romans nobles were from the Trojan blood line.

 

*the Roman nobles claimed to be from the Trojan blood line. It's important to remember that they weren't, in reality, from Troy (if anyone can prove otherwise, I'd love to read about it).

An inscription which appears to be written in Etruscan or a similar alphabet, has been found at Lesbos off the coast of Asia Minor. Aside from this admittedly tiny piece of evidence, there is very little to back up their claim.

[Klingan]

The Romans nobles were from the Trojan blood line.

 

*the Roman nobles claimed to be from the Trojan blood line. It's important to remember that they weren't, in reality, from Troy (if anyone can prove otherwise, I'd love to read about it).

An inscription which appears to be written in Etruscan or a similar alphabet, has been found at Lesbos off the coast of Asia Minor. Aside from this admittedly tiny piece of evidence, there is very little to back up their claim.

 

 

I reckon that inscription normally is used as argument that the Etruscans might have come from somewhere in Asia minor but not Troy? Not even the Greeks and Romans them self believed that.

[marcus silanus]

The Romans nobles were from the Trojan blood line.

 

*the Roman nobles claimed to be from the Trojan blood line. It's important to remember that they weren't, in reality, from Troy (if anyone can prove otherwise, I'd love to read about it).

An inscription which appears to be written in Etruscan or a similar alphabet, has been found at Lesbos off the coast of Asia Minor. Aside from this admittedly tiny piece of evidence, there is very little to back up their claim.

 

 

I reckon that inscription normally is used as argument that the Etruscans might have come from somewhere in Asia minor but not Troy? Not even the Greeks and Romans them self believed that.

The Etruscans are cloaked in mystery. Indeed, Herodotus stated that they came from Asia Minor, but from Lydia not Troy. The story goes that the Lydians during a period of famine, split themselves in two with one half remaining and the other being sent to find richer land by their King Atys.

 

The King's son Tyrrhenus settled with the pioneering half in Italy and, of course and according to Herodotus, these became the Etruscans. This view was widely accepted in Rome and Virgil - ironically - Horace and Ovid often refer to the Etruscans as Lydians in their poetry.

 

Dionisius takes the view that they were an aboriginal Italian people and it could be argued that he had the advantage that he was writing at a time when the Etruscan language was still being spoken and had access to their literature. He is however, very dismissive of those that agreed with the Herodotian view stating that the Etruscans shared little with the Lydians in terms of religion or language, which is a view now more difficult to accept since the discoveries made in 1885.

 

There are proven similarities between Etruscan and Lydian art and language that do persuade me certainly of the Asiatic origins of this mysterious people. The reference that I am looking at is to a funerary stele bearing the portrait of a warrior with an inscription in Greek characters but not in the Greek language. This was found at Lemnos and a similar stele with similar words was found in Etruria linking these ancient cultures.

 

The period following the fall of Mycenaean culture is absolutely full of the mystery of a "dark age"; for that is what it was. I think that so far all are in agreement that the attested date for the fall of Troy and the founding of carthage by Dido are totally incompatible although there may well be a real link between migrations from Asia Minor and the most influential culture to effect early Rome, Latium and Campania.

[guy]

There are proven similarities between Etruscan and Lydian art and language that do persuade me certainly of the Asiatic origins of this mysterious people. The reference that I am looking at is to a funerary stele bearing the portrait of a warrior with an inscription in Greek characters but not in the Greek language. This was found at Lemnos and a similar stele with similar words was found in Etruria linking these ancient cultures.

 

Does anyone put credence in the DNA study linking the Etruscans with Asia Minor?:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/18/italy.johnhooper

 

The money quote:

 

"The DNA samples from Murlo and Volterra are much more highly correlated to those of the eastern peoples than to those of the other inhabitants of [italy]," said Alberto Piazza of the University of Turin, who presented the research. "One particular genetic variant, found in the samples from Murlo, was shared only with people from Turkey."

 

This year, a similar but less conclusive study that tracked the DNA passed down from mothers to daughters, pointed to a direct genetic input from western Asia. In 2004, a team of researchers from Italy and Spain used samples taken from Etruscan burial chambers to establish that the Etruscans were more genetically akin to each other than to contemporary Italians.

 

 

guy also known as gaius

[DecimusCaesar]

I was reading Homer's Iliad recently and Aeneas does make a short appearance in one of the battles in the book, I think it's when Hector breaks through the Achaean ranks and attempts to burn the Greek ships. So he was certainly present before Virgil wrote the Aeneid.

 

It really is amazing when you consider how much influence that Homer's works had on all subsequent Classical eras, from the plays of Aeschylus and Euripidies to the Romans.

 

As for the Carthage section, it doesn't surprise me that it might be Virgil's addition. Greek and Roman literature tends to play very loosely with the chronology of the Trojan War and its aftermath.

[Ingsoc]

It's important to remember that when Greek and Roman authors wrote about ancient myths they didn't invent them but use a common version that was known orally while adding to it there own styles and twists. Vergillius didn't invent the story of Aeneas just as Sophocles didn't invent the story of Oedipus.

[barca]

It's important to remember that when Greek and Roman authors wrote about ancient myths they didn't invent them but use a common version that was known orally while adding to it there own styles and twists. Vergillius didn't invent the story of Aeneas just as Sophocles didn't invent the story of Oedipus.

 

 

That's the impression I had, but do we really know for sure?

 

How well known were Homer's works outside of the the Greek world? Did the Etruscan read about the Trojan War? What about the early Romans prior to their conquest of Magna Graecia, were they familiar with the Trojan war?

[Ingsoc]

That's the impression I had, but do we really know for sure?

 

How well known were Homer's works outside of the the Greek world? Did the Etruscan read about the Trojan War? What about the early Romans prior to their conquest of Magna Graecia, were they familiar with the Trojan war?

 

Homer was but one version of the Trojan war and the stories of it's heroes, as foreign people came in contact with the Greeks some of them adopted and adapt those stories so they could use the various heroes as their ancestor/city founders. for example their were and earlier version in which both Odysseus and Aeneas founded Rome.

 

Their is a great book about this subject called "The Returns of Odysseus" by Irad Malkin.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Ingsoc