Carrhae and Jaxartes

[barca]

Carrhae is well know as one of the biggest blunders oof the Roman Army. Although Crassus was an adequate general, he was no Caesar, nor even Pompey. Still he should have know better than to allow his army to be surrounded by the Parthians. Later on Marc Anthony didn't fare much better, although he was able to avoid a total defeat.

 

Compare that to what Alexander did against the Scythians at Jaxartes. He was very much aware of how dangerous they were and he planned his strategy in such a way that the baiters became the baited.

 

http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jaxartes/battle.html

 

I will admit that the Parthians were a more formidable opponent than the Scythians, but the same principle could have been applied. It's not clear to me what strategy was used later by Trajan, but he must have been familiar with Alexander's strategy against the Scythians.

[sylla]

Carrhae is well know as one of the biggest blunders oof the Roman Army. Although Crassus was an adequate general, he was no Caesar, nor even Pompey. Still he should have know better than to allow his army to be surrounded by the Parthians. Later on Marc Anthony didn't fare much better, although he was able to avoid a total defeat.

 

Compare that to what Alexander did against the Scythians at Jaxartes. He was very much aware of how dangerous they were and he planned his strategy in such a way that the baiters became the baited.

 

http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jaxartes/battle.html

 

I will admit that the Parthians were a more formidable opponent than the Scythians, but the same principle could have been applied. It's not clear to me what strategy was used later by Trajan, but he must have been familiar with Alexander's strategy against the Scythians.

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[barca]

The Romans soon took the measure of the Parthian army, and no Roman defeat of a comparable magnitude was going to happen again; Cassius himself was able to secure the Syrian border with the remnants of the legions defeated at Carrhae.

At least since Antonius and Ventidius, the Romans were able to neutralize the Parthian strategy by the generous use of missile weapons, especially slingers catapults and ballistas (which outranged Parthian archers) and occupying higher ground for their battles.

 

Mark Anthony had ther right idea in including archers, slingers, and artillery. He also made sure that he had allied Armenian and Celtic Cavalry. He did not allow himself to get surrounded in the dessert. He took pains to avoid the errors of Crassus, but he still was unable to come up with a victory. Anthony was no Alexander, and he was no Julius Caeser either.

One can only speculate how Caesar would have done against the Parthians.

[Kosmo]

After reading how Crassus got lost in the desert it's interesting to look at a map and see that it is impossible, he was still in roman lands.

Lucullus had already defeated the parthians like many roman generals after him.

[sylla]

After reading how Crassus got lost in the desert it's interesting to look at a map and see that it is impossible, he was still in roman lands.

Lucullus had already defeated the parthians like many roman generals after him.

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[barca]

..and Ventidius, the Romans were able to neutralize the Parthian strategy...

 

It is interesting how Ventidius was able to lure the parthians out of their own element in attempting to go after him in the mountains. Somewhat similar to the Battle of Morgarten, where the Swiss infantry soundly defeated a large group of Austrian Knights.

[Kosmo]

My mistake.

The best source for the tactics against horse archers it's Hadrian's general the greek Arrian that had fought against alans, wrote a book about it, Ektaxis kata Alanōn, and it's also our best source for Alexander. His descriptions of Alexander's campaigns can be colored and distorted by his own previous military experiences.

[barca]

My mistake.

The best source for the tactics against horse archers it's Hadrian's general the greek Arrian that had fought against alans, wrote a book about it, Ektaxis kata Alanōn, and it's also our best source for Alexander. His descriptions of Alexander's campaigns can be colored and distorted by his own previous military experiences.

 

It is not clear what percentage of the Alanic cavalry were archers. Much of what Arrian describes involves receiving a frontal assault of heavy cavalry. For example, the throwing of the javelins would not work against mounted archers because they would stay out of javelin range.

[barca]

In fact, one of the main criticisms against Crassus at Carrhae has been that his attack was entirely unprovoked (naturally a politically biased criticism, as the vast majority of Roman attacks were so).

 

According to Plutarch, Caesar actually encouraged Crassus to go on his Parthian expedition.

 

Is it possible that Caesar foresaw the outcome? Was it a convenient way to get rid of one of his rivals?

[sylla]

According to Plutarch, Caesar actually encouraged Crassus to go on his Parthian expedition.

 

Is it possible that Caesar foresaw the outcome? Was it a convenient way to get rid of one of his rivals?

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam. Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla