Masada

[DecimusCaesar]

I recently got hold of the Masada Miniseries from 1980. It's the one starring Peter O'Toole and Anthony Quayle. I haven't watched it yet - it remains sealed on top of my PC. Has anyone seen this before? I hear it's well regarded as a drama, but how historically accurate is it?

 

I'm loooking forward to watching it. Afterall if it has O'Toole, Quayle, and an epic score by Jerry Goldsmith then it can't be all bad. Plus it's about a very interesting period of Roman history. A good 6 hours and ten minutes ought to do the story justice.

 

Any thoughts on this series?

[Nephele]

We had quite a discussion about the Masada TV mini-series a couple of years ago. You may be interested in checking it out:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7163&hl

 

-- Nephele

[sylla]

We had quite a discussion about the Masada TV mini-series a couple of years ago. You may be interested in checking it out:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7163&hl

 

-- Nephele

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[Artimi]

And yet to stand at the top of Masada and see the ruins and see the remains of the Roman camps and the ramp is awe inspiring. Dont know why.

[Kosmo]

If the defenders of Masada (or Viriathus or George Washington or Jeanne of Arc or Homo Kenyatta or Lech Walesa or Nehru) should be called

[sylla]

Jeanne d'Arc was killed by some French while she was actually from the Holy Empire, Walesa was imprisoned by the polish government and poles definitely don't see him as a hero and among the opponents of Washington and the secessionist movement were many colonists and natives - the loyalists.

My point - the defenders of Masada were part of a political movement not the representatives of an entire nation (linguistic or religious group). There were other political movements in the area that fought on the roman side while other people, probably a majority, focused on survival.

I believe that most people are fighting for the independence of a country so they can rule it, not because independence has a positive value in itself.

I Edited November 22, 2009 by sylla

[Kosmo]

I

[sylla]

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[DecimusCaesar]

We had quite a discussion about the Masada TV mini-series a couple of years ago. You may be interested in checking it out:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7163&hl

 

-- Nephele

 

Thanks for the reply Nephele.

 

I've started watching the series this weekend - about an hour on saturday - and so far I've found it enjoyable. Peter O'Toole seems to have aged a lot between Lawrence of Arabia in 1964 and Masada in 1981. So much so that he almost looks like a different person, although that might have something to do with him having lost a lot of weight.

 

Anyway, this series has encouraged me to crack open Josephus's account again, so it can't be that bad.

[DecimusCaesar]

I finally finished watching the series tonight. Not really accurate but enjoyable nonetheless. What I found odd was that despite the 6 hour running time it still felt a bit short, especiallly towards the end. I also found myself sympathizing with The Romans more than the Sicarii Jews - and I don't think that's what the show's creators wanted. The reason for this is because the Jewish characters all seemed to be under developed, which is the main reason why I felt the series could have been longer, or at least better developed.

 

We spend most of the time at camp with O'Toole's idealistic but rather reasonable General Silva. He's the best character in the series, and the most fully developed and human. Peter Strauss's Eleazar was too much of a true hero to be approachable and understandable. I didn't really get his sudden conversion from an agnostic bordering on atheism at the beginning of the film, to his unwavering religious devotion towards the last hour or so. He imagined that God might have answered one of his prayers, but why that managed to fill him with so much righteousness that he asked everyone at Masada to commit suicide I don't know. It also helps that O'Toole's portrayl of Silva was excellent, and that he was much better than Strauss (but then again Strauss wasn't really given much space to develop his rather one dimensional 'hero' character).

 

Anyway it was very good, but I wish I'd been given a greater look at the Jews on Masada. I was actually surprised to see how Romanocentric this series was. Even if the Romans are meant to be the villains.

[caldrail]

The mass-suicide of the defenders is usually portrayed as something heroic (it is, understandably, a national icon for Israel), and the Roman legionaries who made that breakthrough into the almost tomb-like fortress were recorded as stunned by what they saw. It's difficult to understand the mindset of those people. They certainly had no wish to surrender to the tender mercies of Roman retribution thuis the act of mass suicide in this case carries with connotations of an honourable end, despite the fact that suicide rendered them ineligible for heaven, a point that doesn't get mentioned.

 

Also, it must be stressed these defenders were zealots. They were, at least in Roman eyes, an ancient equivalent of Al-Queda. Their decision making processes were guided by a self-justification that ordinary people might well struggle to understand. One woman and her children survived the slaughter, hiding in a drain, and she was the one who told the Romans what had transpired.

 

I haven't seen this program - I suspect I'll hate every moment of it - but from what you say it revolves very much on stereotypical characters that have more to do with modern christian interpretation than the ancient 'terrorist' organisation seeking refuge in Herods old fort.

 

Romanocentricity is to be expected. Okay, the author who wrote the original account, Josephus, was a jew. But he had changed sides, gone over to the winning Roman team, and had every reason to please his peers with tales of Romanocentric victory in the Jewish War. That he retains a semblance of objectivity is commendable, but as with any account of the period, you need to realise that it remains a personal account.

 

Then again, the Roman viewpoint will always be paramount. History is written by the victors and in most cases their opponents were illerate and left no lasting record. The Goths are unusual in this regard in that Jordanes wrote their history - even if a little idealised - and thus we have an alternative. It hasn't escaped my attention that the zealots story has not been preserved, other than through Roman writers and thus potentially sanitised, and it might be worth considering how the jews as a whole felt toward those defenders of Masada at the time. I've no doubt they had sympathisers, but Masada was among the last actions of the war. Two legions had already gone home. It was a mopping-up operation, albeit on a larger scale, dealing with the last resistance from the rebels.

 

Heroes or deluded extremists? When you consider the relevant facts it does have some extraordinary parallels to modern politics, and as always, perspective is the key. Since the whole point of making the program was to dramatise the situation, it's hardly suprising that it's portrayed with modern sentiment and a somewhat less than insightful script. Perhaps I might change my mind if I see it for myself one day. Somehow I doubt it.

[Lanista]

The mini-series was actually based on a novel called "The Antagonists" - I'm not sure it claims to have been based on Josephus at all (but that'll be in the credits I'm sure). The novel was largely from the Roman POV, and the physical conflict between the jews on the mountain and the Romans was replayed metaphorically between Silva and a Jewish woman (which is in the mini-series I think).

[sylla]

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Edited January 1, 2010 by sylla

[caldrail]

There's nothing absurd at all. You're too rigid in comparison when all I intended was something generic, which is intentional on your part because it it allows you an excuse to criticise. Of course there are differences. What I mean is that the zealots were a pressure group with their own agenda and a hatred of a powerful occupying force whose religious beliefs differ. The parallels on that superficial level are obvious. To take the comparison further is simply a blind alley which I notice you entered with your usual enthusiasm.

 

In any case, the modern world has global issues and infrastructure that didn't exist in Roman times, but whilst we're on the subject, there was plenty of jewish anger in the Mediterranean world of the time and it has been noted that that the Book of Revelation (yes, our very own apocalyptic vision from the bible) was likely no more than a disguised call for violence against Rome, much the same as modern terrorist propaganda. The case for jewish involvement in the Fire of Rome of ad64 is still under consideration.

 

It would be worth realising that since the jews were largely restricted to one part of the empire and that their religious teachings hadn't spread far at that time, there was little reason for the jews to attack beyond their own borders, seeing as the zealots (besides knifing their own politicians and so forth) had domestic issues with occupation and were attempting rebellion to oust the Romans.

 

As for analyzing Josephus, I find that an odd attitude. So what if he was a turncoat? We aren't here to castigate him for his actions, just to reflect on his writings and their historical significance and content, which is something we could apply to any classical source, even the ones you prefer - and the ones you claim to be supremacists.

 

The only reason you're puzzled is that you're finding people don't necessarily share your views. The values you place on classical sources seem very partisan. As far as I'm concerned, they're all of value in determining the course of events. Certainly some are better than others - I wouldn't claim the Historia Augustae to be anything other than the romanticised and entertaining history that it was. That doesn't detract from its value as a source.

 

Lets face it. Human beings have a very nasty psyche. Period.

[sylla]

As for analyzing Josephus, I find that an odd attitude. So what if he was a turncoat? We aren't here to castigate him for his actions, just to reflect on his writings and their historical significance and content, which is something we could apply to any classical source, even the ones you prefer - and the ones you claim to be supremacists.

Read carefully; I did not analyze Josephus ethical issues , but just his reliability as a source for the nature of the Jewish rebels...

 

As virtually nothing of your last post relates to my last post, we may even agree; who knows ?